Episode 150: How to be authentic as f*ck in your marketing w/Sun Yi
How do you actually grow an organic audience to over 150k with no ads? By being authentic in your marketing and not doing what everyone else's is "telling you to do!" My friend, storyteller, and marketing expert Sun Yi Shares all of his lessons growing his audience from zero to hundreds of thousands in just a short time frame without using ads or having lots of "famous friends". Tune in if you want to truly stand out in this saturated online space and create content that engages and converts, because people want to buy from people!
Here’s What We Cover In the Episode and More:
Strategies for growing Instagram followers.
Building personal branding on social media.
Crafting relatable and simple content.
Techniques for engaging audiences.
Selling products through compelling stories.
The “Inventor’s Journey” in marketing.
Visual storytelling in digital marketing.
Addressing consumer pain points in sales.
Insights into consumer psychology and buying behavior.
Tips for E-commerce and sales pages.
Simplifying language for better engagement.
Trends in online content creation and coaching.
By focusing on crafting evergreen content, maximizing its repurposability and harnessing the power of media attention, entrepreneurs can build lasting relationships with their audience and convert content into sales on a budget,
Product Businesses! Download my free HOW TO GET INTO A GIFT GUIDE/PRODUCT ROUND UP roadmap for free HERE to get more sales and traffic to your site this season.
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Resources Mentioned:
Join the PR Secrets Masterclass
Join the Small Biz PR Pros Facebook Group
DM the word “PITCH” to us on Instagram to get a pitching freebie https://www.instagram.com/gloriachoupr
Connect with Gloria Chou on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/gloriaychou
Join Gloria Chou's PR Community https://www.facebook.com/groups/428633254951941
Follow Sun Yi on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sun.yi/?hl=en
Check out his website: https://sunyi.co/
Additional Resources:
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Transcript
00:00:00 Gloria: What's up, small business heroes? Welcome back to another episode of Small Business PR, where we make marketing and PR super accessible for the everyday small business underdog. Now today, I have my personal friend, Sun Yi here. You might have seen his stuff on Instagram. He grew like crazy. He is many things. He's a TEDx speaker. He's an entrepreneur. He's a founder of a digital creative agency in New York. And today, we're going to talk about the changing tides in marketing, personal branding and how the hell do you actually grow an Instagram following in this day when everyone has an Instagram?
00:00:28 Gloria: So welcome to the show, Sun Yi.
00:00:30 Sun: Hi, Gloria. I was going to say I love your podcast voice. It's very professional.
00:00:39 Gloria: Spoken like a real friend. I mean, I don't know. Sometimes I'm like nasally as fuck. I just have to give you credit because I met you in the thick of the pandemic, lockdown times when people were hoarding mass at Walmart, right? 2020, and you started your business, your personal brand business, you grew your Instagram. Can we just tell people just really quickly numbers because I'm just astounded. I'm not astounded because honestly, you have good content, we're going to get into how to grow following. But can you just tell us how you grew numbers? Where did you start? How many years did it take you? And what is your following now?
00:01:13 Sun: I started April of 2020. In the first nine months, I think I grew to 60,000 followers. And then I kind of stopped for like a year and then I came back and I started posting again. And it actually grew kind of slow. Like what I realized after that now I'm at like 130, I think. Well, here's the thing, like growing Instagram, growing any social media is never linear. I was at 125 for like months. And then in the past week, I got like 5,000 new followers. So it's weird like that. It's like, it might be crickets for months.
00:01:50 Sun: And then like, something goes viral and then boom, and they might be crickets for a while. Like that's how it… usually, it happens like, almost like stairs. So I noticed that a lot of people, what they do in the beginning, they'll post for like three months and then they're like, oh, this isn't working and quit. It could have been that if they just did it for another week, they could have got another like 10,000 followers or something like that. It's… a lot of people just can't stand that. So they give up.
00:02:15 Gloria: I will say it's not, for me, like seeing your growth, it's not just followers because you know, like you can buy followers, but the level of engagement, if y'all, if you follow Sun Yi, is it as, Sun Yi? S-U-N-Y-I?
00:02:27 Sun: Yeah. That Y-I. Yeah.
00:02:29 Gloria: Okay. If the level of engagement, that's what I'm talking about. The fact that you are able to bring such humanness and make Instagram social again, because we see so many coaches that have tens of thousands of followers in one comment, but your comments are off the chain. I mean, it is... I'm just watching a movie here, right? So I want to talk about how you can actually build a community which you have every time you're on a live. I mean, there's so many people just within a short attention span.
00:02:55 Gloria: And I can understand why, because not only do you have such an authentic quality to you, but the way that you message, you explain things in such a simple way that there's like a natural relatability to it. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think one of the posts that you posted that I actually literally went back to and showed my husband was a post when you were, like reading some boilerplate garbage language from somebody's website. And it was like, we do, and I don't know what it is, but can you explain that? Because it is gold.
00:03:25 Sun: Yeah, so like in copywriting, a lot of people, what they do is, at school, we're taught to write, professional or whatever it is. So I remember when I was writing essays, I would actually look up, in the source, like how to use big words, right, like, so, like what's another word for this? So I did that, right? But then that doesn't translate to copywriting. So now I actually, I have to look up the source to look for, is there a simpler way to say this? Do you know what I mean?
00:03:52 Sun: So I don't even know exactly what I said there, but it's like, you know, like some corporate agencies will be like, oh yeah, we engage in strategic partners, you know, with our clients to, you know, to further engage in what, like all this like jumble. And instead of saying like, we only like, we're the best in websites cause we only make websites. That's like, speak as if you're speaking to a child. So that's what I always say. And that, like I, and people, some people don't wanna do that because like, I don't wanna look, I don't wanna sound dumb or like, trust me, I sound like a 12 year old and nobody thinks I'm dumb. So actually nobody's gonna think you're dumb because you simplify your language, you know?
00:04:35 Gloria: Yeah, I think it also speaks to, like the changing consumer taste where before, maybe because information was not as readily available or there are less coaches, we put a lot of premium on expertise, right? Experts. And so I think a lot of experts use these fancy funnels and templates and frameworks to make you feel like, okay, I need to buy from this person because they know more than me. But you're basically saying, no, that actually doesn't work anymore. And the more you try to separate yourself from the audience, actually, they're not going to buy from you. Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:05:06 Sun: Even if you do use that language, nobody's going to think you're an expert just because you lose. I mean, because I've been in this, like, I work with so many, you know, we used to work with, like, work with personal brands for like the last seven, eight years, but before that, we worked with, like huge companies. And whenever I go into these meetings with like, you know, C-level executives and things like that, the top people are usually the most, like a better word, the dumbest ones.
00:05:34 Sun: So some tech consultant will try to be impressive and be like, oh yeah, we're going to be using MVC framework and we'll like, using like, using agile methodology or whatever. And then the CEO or the CTO will be like, I'm sorry, this might be a stupid question, but what's an MVC framework like? And that's the question that everybody else in the room had, right? So a lot of times when you even do that, it doesn't even… people are not looking at black. Oh, wow. Look at this expert. That's not what they're doing. It's like, cause they don't understand what you're saying. Do you understand what I mean? So that just doesn't work.
00:06:14 Sun: And also like there's a, I heard the story of like they did a test. They had this person, like on stage, like five different people give a talk. And at the end, they asked the audience, like, who did you find most relatable or, you know, who did you like the most or something like that? And they purposely, one of the person they purposely had it like, he had a coffee stain on his shirt and that was like by design. And everybody said him because he was the most relatable. And it was only because of the coffee stain, right?
00:06:47 Sun: So people are going to find, like regular people, relatable. So when you're, like too much of an expert, they're going to be like, Oh yeah, it worked for you, but it's never going to work for me. Right? Like even, like people probably do that with you, right? It's like, Oh, Gloria. Yeah, you got all that public PR and blah, blah, blah. It worked for you, but it's not gonna work. But then like, I'm sure like for you, like because you're being more down to earth, being a real person, people are gonna be like, oh, if it worked for her, it's definitely gonna work for me too. Do you know what I mean?
00:07:19 Gloria: Yeah, I actually have people who actually joined my program because they said that they liked my story of never working in PR. And so what I thought was my weakness is actually my strength.
00:07:31 Sun: Yeah, exactly. That's like a perfect example right there. So don't be, I always say, don't be an expert, be a friend. Here's one. So I've worked with Mel Robbins before and you know, like, when I say don't be an expert, be a friend, what I mean is… so Mel Robbins will tell her story when she talks about, like how she used to be like, this is what I call the old you in the story. Like, so when you tell a story, the first thing to check for is, is there old you versus the new you? I used to be like this, but now I'm like this, right?
00:08:09 Sun: So for her, the old you was her not being able to wake up on time, hitting snooze, and always drinking, not getting her kids to, she was stuck in a rut, right? And one of the things she talks about is, she would go to a supermarket, wait in the checkout line, and try to come up with what she's going to say when her credit card gets declined, because there's no way that credit card's going through. So when she says that, right, everybody's thinking, it's something that people have been before, like people have been there before, but it's something that nobody says out loud.
00:08:46 Sun: I saw this tweet the other day. Somebody said, does anyone else do this? When I go out to walk my dog like I look into other people's houses, like I'm, cause I'm nosy or something like that. Right. Like, that story, relatable because that's something a lot of, like, all of us have done at some point, but nobody would admit it. Right. And when you do that, it's almost like sharing a secret. It's like, if you and I know a secret that nobody else in the world knows, that's going to form a bond between you and me. And when you tell a story like that, where everybody's thinking or feeling, but nobody has said out loud, it has the same effect. Like, Oh my gosh, wow. Like Mel Robbins has done that. I thought I was the only one and it immediately forms a bond. And that's what makes it relatable.
00:09:33 Gloria: I love that so much. Especially now, everyone can get all those Instagram templates and it's like, who's really for you? And I like what you said about, people don't want to buy because they understand you, but if you understand them. So along the same lines, I love what you said, is like calling out the BS or calling out what people don't share. So that's what I love. I love a contrarian angle for pitching as well. Is there another storytelling hack or for content that really draws people in that has really worked well?
00:10:01 Sun: Yeah, I'll talk about the things, the common mistakes that people make. So one of the biggest mistake I think is, I'll talk about two. Like one of them actually, I just talked about it and went viral, so I'll talk about that. But the first one is, people are usually not telling a story. They're telling a summary of a story. Like I call it the synopsis of, story. Like you've heard this before, like somebody will go like, Oh, I had a job, I was in a relationship, but I felt stuck, I wasn't happy. And I was like, oh, there's gotta be more to this. So I quit my job and I started my business and I never looked back and it's the best decision I made. That would be the story, right?
00:10:43 Sun: Well, that's not a story. It's just a summary of what happened to you, right? And that exact story that I just told, like everybody saying that, oh, I used to be a lawyer, oh, I used to be in finance. So everybody's telling the same exact story. And the reason why they all sound the same is because it's not a story. The other day, I was watching this one movie with Tina Fey and they were talking about the origin story of like, oh, so why are you here? And she was saying something like, I was working out at this gym. I go to the same gym every night after work and I'm on this treadmill, right? Running, running, running.
00:11:19 Sun: And one night I noticed that there's like an indent in front of the stationary bike. And I realized that that's where this bike used to be and they moved it backwards. And she's like, I've done thousands of miles on this bike and I've literally moved backwards. And I had to get, like, that's when I realized, like I had to get out of there. So that's like a vivid moment. I call it the five second moment. Like tell a story of what happened exactly in that five seconds, right? Like what's the thing that triggered you to, you know, have this epiphany, right?
00:11:53 Sun: Draw a picture, where were you, who were you with? Was it day, was it night, was it indoor, was it outdoor? Like draw a scene. Like in writing, they call this show, Don't Tell. Then I think that, that's when people are gonna be drawn. It's like, you know, you're bringing them into the story. But if you just say, oh yeah, you know, I felt stuck and I was, and then like, you know, I just decided to quit, then that's not really a story. So that's the first one.
00:12:19 Sun: The second one is, it's related to that whole expert thing. But people try to write too fancy. Like people try to write poetry, oh, I'm a self-conscious healer with, like this, or like, even like what I said before, too complex. And this was like a scene from another movie. I just saw it, it's called American Fiction. And it's about an author who is trying to sell his book, but nobody's buying his book, right? No… Publisher is not buying his book. And his agent is like, he brings out three bottles of Johnny Walker. And he goes, here's Johnny Walker red, here's black, and here's blue. And one is shit, the less is less shit, and this one is good.
00:13:06 Sun: And what you're writing is blue. It's good, it's complex, it's smart, but people are not buying it, because most people just want red. Most people just want something easy, cheap, that they can get wasted on. And that's so true. Like whenever I post anything on social media where I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so smart. This is like, this is what people are going to love. It's like the best lead styler. I put it out and it just crickets. And then I say something really simple, like everybody probably knows this. And then I'll just like, put it out and then it just goes viral. So like never underestimate the simplicity of the audience.
00:13:46 Gloria: Ooh, that is so good. You got… For anyone listening, you got to come back to this. Never underestimate the simplicity of the audience. Yeah, I think we get tripped up and thinking we need to package all of our stuff and so much that people get lost in the wrapping paper. They don't ever get to the core of what it is, right? And so I think your ability to deconstruct all of that and just to reveal that core essence is really beautiful. And I see your posts, they're simple, they're black and white, but you are able to draw people in, in the one moment and then expand on something else. So that's super helpful.
00:14:14 Gloria: Do you have any other tips for people? Because I know there's a lot of people that, let's say, if people make a product, right? They're like, oh, well, I'm a behind the scenes person. I just sell this product. People don't need to know about me. And I always say, well, that's not true. Right? We want to buy products from people that we know. I don't care if you're selling soap or a candle. So do you have any advice there, for someone who makes a physical product?
00:14:34 Sun: Two things. For physical products, the best story to tell is what I call an inventor's journey. Instead of a hero's journey, inventor's journey. So that's the same story you hear on Shark Tank. You know, I was struggling and I was like, I own a farm and I had this thing and then I was wasting so much water and I was, like trying to figure out a way to do that. And, you know, like Kevin O'Leary says, there's gotta be a better way. So I made this thing and you know, once I made it, everybody started asking me for it. And, you know, so that's like the inventor's journey, right? Like, oh, I was struggling with this myself. So I found the, you know, I found the solution because I tried all these other products and it didn't work.
00:15:14 Sun: And so that's like, that, you know, just go watch Shark Tank, every episode of Shark Tank where everybody got good investment, every one of them has that same story. You know, that's the inventor's journey story. So that's what I would put in like the about us page, right? Like, oh, if you say about us, here's our founder. This is a little, blah. To sell the product, the best way to, is not to tell your own story, but to tell customer stories. That inventor's journey is already your… cause you're your first customer. I struggle with it myself and then I found a solution.
00:15:48 Sun: But, you know, tell customer story because a lot of times what's gonna happen, like the storytelling method that I teach is like myth, example and truth. Meaning, what do most people believe? Oh most people believe that to go viral or to get audience, you have to tell, really complex and good story, right? Well, the truth is, the example is, oh, the Johnnie Walker example, but nobody wants Johnnie Walker, like Johnnie Walker is good, it's expensive, but most people just want Johnnie Walker red, the cheap one, right?
00:16:21 Sun: The truth is you have to make it simple and easy, right? So that's the same framework that I use and you can use it in products, right? Like most people think that paying, you know, the more you pay, the better it is. But the truth is, you know, something like that. Or most people think that I just want to buy the cheapest one, but the… and then come up with an example where that's not true, right? That everyone can relate to. And then the truth is this.
00:16:50 Gloria: I love that so much. I mean, you've given us so many pointers. Yeah, I think and I also think, you know, so obviously, just to recap, like simplicity, inventor story, talk about your customers. Where do you think people, like they understand that, but they still get a couple things wrong? Like where do you think they most often get tripped up when it comes to–
00:17:08 Sun: Maybe because they… because everyone's so focused on features and been, oh, my product has this and this, this, right? I had a client who, I'll give you an example. I had a client who sells these teas for, to help like, it's called autophagy. It's like, it's to remove toxins and stuff like that. And it's related to also, like intermittent fasting and keto diet and things like that, right? We don't wanna sell the product. What we wanna sell is the problem, right? So in that, I think, sales page, what we did was, hey, are you...
00:17:46 Sun: So we knew for her, the target audience were middle-aged women who are always getting tired. Like they're aging and things like that. And this woman actually used… the woman used to be, like middle-aged, but she looks like she's 20 years old. So obviously that helps. But we said, hey, is like, are you, is aging like wearing you down? Are you like getting tired? Are you, you know, all of those problems, we start with that.
00:18:14 Sun: And then we talk about, it’s… there's actually a way you can reverse aging. And it's based on this Nobel winning science and it's called autophagy and autophagy, what it does is, you know, just by like intermittent fasting or something like that, it removes all the toxins in your body, blah blah blah so that you can look younger and stop aging and all of that. And so we're not selling the product at all. What we're selling is we're selling autophagy, right?
00:18:45 Sun: So, you know, everybody should do that, right? Like if you're selling, yeah, you know, the old saying like, you're not selling a drill, you're selling the hole, right? Like, find out what is the end thing that people want. And sometimes in product business, it's like, well, I'll say this, right? As a product business, you also need to know, like the real reason people buy something versus the reason why they tell other people why they buy.
00:19:13 Sun: So a good example is this. A lot of people say, I buy a Tesla because it's environmentally friendly or something like that, or it's like, oh, it has the best technology or something like that. But the real reason why people buy a Tesla is because they want to look cool. They want to be the tech bros. Like, oh, look, I have a Tesla. Like it's to fill their own ego. And in most products, it's like that. In most products, the real reason why people buy is it's a status symbol, right? You can go to work in a bicycle or you can go to work in any beat up car.
00:19:45 Sun: So why do some people buy, you know, Honda versus Ferrari? It's all, status symbol, right? So, you know, I think it's so important for you to, if you're selling a product, it's important for you to understand the psychology of what is the status symbol I'm selling here. And that doesn't mean more expensive because if you wear a three piece suit and you go to the park where kids are, you know, like skateboarding or skaters, like you're, actually status is lower than the kid that's wearing, Supreme T-shirt or something like that, right?
00:20:20 Sun: So status isn't always about more money, you know, like the reason why most people buy is because they want to fit in somewhere. So I think it's important for us to understand, like the psychology of that. And so for your product, why are people buying, you know? What's the psychological reason why people buy?
00:20:37 Gloria: Again, unraveling all those fancy words. I actually have someone who makes an incredible children's toy. So it's one simple toy that can double, triple as 50 different other things. I think her headline was something that was like innovation, design. I was like, I think this is just for parents who are sick of lugging shit around. They just want one.
00:20:57 Sun: Yeah, exactly. That's the real thing they're selling. Yeah.
00:21:02 Gloria: Yeah. Do you have any other pointers? I can imagine this being so helpful for like, you know, like e-commerce or anyone's sales page, right? What are some common mistakes that you see like in the sales page when you're trying to communicate and get people to buy?
00:21:17 Sun: So I would say not just, sales page in any sales message, you have to start with the pain points. Like, hey, are you feeling this? Hey, are you sick of lugging around the three different toys with you? I mean, when you're going on trips or like, are you sick of, like, cleaning all the toys up? You know, like, so whatever the real pain point, get to the psychological, like I said, the psychology of what is the real pain, right? This might be a little bit inappropriate, but I'll say it anyway.
00:21:45 Sun: There's a guy who was teaching copywriting and he was talking about how, there was a guy who was selling a book that teaches a man about like how to be a better man, how to, you know, how to be a loving father, a good husband, good, you know, things like that. And he was talking about how to get a date, like how to be the kind of man that women want to date, right? And a lot of those things were, a lot of what's about being a good man is also the same thing that attracts women.
00:22:16 Sun: And so instead of like, titling the book like, How to Be a Good Man, this guy said, I want you to title the book, How to Get Ahead. Because ultimately, psychologically, that's what most men are looking for, right? Of course, how to get ahead, okay, that's what everybody's like, oh, ooh, that's what I want, but how do you get that? Is to actually be a better man. Do you understand what I mean?
00:22:40 Gloria: Yeah.
00:22:41 Sun: So a lot of people don't get that. Like I talk to a lot of fitness products or fitness coach or something, people in fitness, and they're like, oh yeah, there's some sort of a trauma that you need to deal with. And that's the reason why people, going on this roller coaster diet, they lose the weight and they gain it back and things like that. And they start talking about trauma and things like that. And I'm like, Hey, your customers, no one hear that. They just want to lose 30 pounds. Okay. Like if you keep talking about the trauma and things like that, like they're going to go somewhere else.
00:23:09 Sun: So just talk about the pain point that the customer is feeling. Don't go fast forward and try to, like, I think there's a time for that. Maybe like later in the sales funnel or after they become a customer, then you can talk about that stuff. But in the beginning, there's some vanity, there's some vain like vice that they wanna fix, right? Oh, I just want more dates. Oh, I wanna get my ex-boyfriend back. Oh, you know what I mean? I just wanna lose 30 pounds. So figure out what that is and start with that.
00:23:41 Sun: And another thing is like, you actually, on the sales page, the more information, the better. Like people, you know, we always talk about short, like shorter, make everything simple and shorter. But in the sales page, like you want that top maybe a sales message about the pain point, here's the solution, that to be short. But underneath that you want to add as many information as possible because in e-commerce, what happens is a lot of customers will look at a product and go like, oh yeah, I think this makes sense, but I don't know about their return policy. I'll just come back later.
00:24:16 Sun: Oh, you know, or, oh, I don't know about like, oh, I don't know if he uses this material, I don't know, I'll just come back later. Cause as soon as they say, I'll come back later, trust me, they're not coming back. So every information that the customers need in order to make that purchasing decision needs to be on that page. So you just do not want that customer to come back because tomorrow turns into next week, turns into next month, and next month turns into never.
00:24:44 Gloria: Yeah, I think that's good to be thorough. But I think what you said is so apt. It's like, what is the actual emotional pull? Like, for example, getting a revenge body versus like, lose 30 pounds. I think that's so good. And obviously, like in the sales page, you can put in all of the FAQs. That's so good. Is there any other marketing hacks that you're seeing that's really working right now when like everyone can just go and get like a template from a shop and get a really cool website? What are the websites that are actually like working really well?
00:25:11 Sun: One thing that I've been loving lately is Threads. Threads and LinkedIn. Like, I feel like Instagram is heyday is kind of gone. Like the heyday of coaching is gone. Hey, like what happened was when the lockdown happened, like, everybody left their job nine to five and wanted to be a coach and I wanna do my 10K, 20K a month. And then 99% of those people are not gonna make it. So, six months later, a year later, people started dropping out. And I think we've passed the heydays of those days.
00:25:48 Sun: And Instagram, I feel like at the same time, I feel like Instagram has kind of fallen off. Like there's, now there's more creators on Instagram than ever. And there's less consumers on Instagram as ever. So it's like all coaches talking to each other, you know what I mean? Like trying to sell to each other. Right. So… but I think LinkedIn and, like a lot of the consumers, moved over to TikTok. So I would say if you're selling products, TikTok.
00:26:16 Sun: Like if you're selling products and you're not on TikTok, like, I don't know what you're doing because that's like, that's all I see on TikTok, otherwise like I feel like I'm having a really good growth in Threads and LinkedIn right now. Because I guess that's like a lot of creators are not there yet.
00:26:34 Gloria: Yeah, I think and I also think like, you need to know what each platform is used for. Like, you know, people don't want to go to Instagram for talking head knowledge per se, right? They don't want to be talked to. They want entertainment. So if you do have a lot of educational content, like maybe LinkedIn, I mean, I definitely do feel that my lifestyle, like B-roll stuff performs way better than any of my video podcast clips, which makes sense, right? Because people are not on there. So I think that definitely, if you have to–
00:26:59 Sun: If you sell lifestyle product, I would say Instagram is still the best, actually.
00:27:04 Gloria: If you sell lifestyle, for sure. Yeah. And all the lifestyle journalists are there too.
00:27:08 Sun: Yeah. Yeah. I guess like, yeah, in that space, Instagram is still the... Still king. Because that's Instagram, I call it the prettiest one, right? That's where you're going to see all the beautiful vacations, all the beautiful, luxury things. So if you're like, that's where you're going to find that. So that's where you got to go.
00:27:31 Gloria: So speaking of pretty, the question of aesthetics comes in because we, as humans, we always make a lot of problems for ourselves before we start. So a lot of the objections is like, I don't have a proper mic or I don't have the equipment. Like how much does the aesthetics matter and how much is it more about the messaging and the copy?
00:27:47 Sun: I personally think that, like, the aesthetics matters like 5% because it's like, you know, I see so many people with the perfect setup that gets no views. And then I see people like Gary V or I see people on TikTok that are just like doing selfie videos in their car and it gets millions of views, right? So I really don't think… but in Instagram, aesthetics does matter a little bit more. So like on Instagram, what I noticed is like the reels that do good in Instagram are those, like those drone shots or those beautifully shot sceneries or like, you know, and even if it's the person like, it's like the slow motion them in Paris or something like that.
00:28:24 Sun: Whereas those don't work at all on TikTok. Actually, TikTok like hates that. TikTok wants that raw, like the selfie videos like for me works the best on TikTok. The talking head I feel like has had his heyday and same thing like the coaching space. The talking head video, like for example, if I clip this and like everyone's seen that, right? Like, so I think people are starting to get sick of that. So I'm actually trying to think about, like, oh, what's something special I can do? Like, like the ones, that's been working for me lately is like, because I teach storytelling.
00:29:01 Sun: One thing I'll do is I'll take that Johnnie Walker clip or I'll take a clip from an existing movie scene or something like that. And I'll kind of break it down and I'll be like, Hey, this is kind of related to this or what's the lesson of this story or something like that.
00:29:17 Gloria: Yeah. It's just like approaching the same content, but at a different angle, maybe not so literal, which is, you know, the talking head.
00:29:22 Sun: Don't copy people because, you know, the talking head is what happened when everybody copies, right? Like, you know, the Instagram whenever, everyone takes the photo with, at the pool with their knees. Like that's what happens when everybody just copies each other. And those are going to die at some point.
00:29:39 Gloria: I think they already are. And that's actually, you know, the reason why I wanted you to come on here is because, you know, “we met each other when there was the gold rush,” right, of like online content. And now in this year of recording this, like it is a massacre. Like there's so many coaches and people who just don't have their business anymore, or shutting down. And so I think we're really at a moment of reckoning for online, both creators, influencers and also coaches. So where do you think this is headed? You think that things are going to not necessarily get worse, but you think it's just going to be more–
00:30:12 Sun: I think it's a good thing. Because I've been through... I started my career during the dot-com bubble back in 2000. So every new industry, whether it's back then the dot-com or the social media or Bitcoin or what do you call it? NFT is like, whatever the new thing is, there's always going to be people that take advantage of it, right? During the gold rush, like every… it's going to flood the market and it's going to seem like everybody's getting rich, things like that.
00:30:44 Sun: But what has to happen is a lot of people start… has to start failing and drop out and then the market becomes stabilized. So you know, like for a while, it's going to seem like, Oh, everybody's making money and then everybody's losing money and then like, Oh, that's a scam. And then like once it's stabilized, now the cream of the crop is left. The people that are actually providing value, the coaches that are actually helping, they're going to be the ones left and now that's a market, right? That's when it becomes boring. It's not the hot new thing anymore, but that's actually when a market is stable.
00:31:19 Sun: So I actually love boring businesses. I tell people that like, if you're too excited, that's not a good sign because, you know, when you run a business for two, three years, it's not going to be that exciting. There's a lot of, like running a business is very boring. You know, there's a lot of nitty gritty work and that's when you're actually starting to make money. So, and I, all my business have been like that, like in the beginning of the exciting years, but that's not when you're making money. It's when things start getting boring and you're doing the daily, the routine things, that's when the money starts coming in.
00:31:54 Gloria: Yeah, definitely persistence. And I will say that, like it is a good thing. I mean, it's not a good thing when there's a lot of people who are unable to be profitable. But I think it is a good thing because it's forcing the market to adapt and to really give a crap about their customers. Right? Like, there's just so many people out there who are selling this and selling that. And the reason why people are jaded and that they're not buying is because of all these people who are promising so many things and they don't give them any... Not even remembering their name. Right?
00:32:24 Gloria: I had someone who told me that she joined a program. That's more expensive than mine. And for two years, she was learning from this coach and this coach didn't even know who she was. I didn't even know her name. Like, that just like, baffles my mind. And so hopefully, with the way that the market is turning in the way that it's much more difficult now to get a customer, the people who actually give a crap will be the ones that are rewarded.
00:32:48 Sun: Yeah. And the ones that are actually good. Not just–
00:32:51 Gloria: That too.
00:32:52 Sun: Yeah. Not just the best at selling because I feel like for the past few years, it was all about who knows how to sell the best. But now it's getting to a point where you actually have to be good too.
00:33:05 Gloria: Yeah, exactly. Because everyone is using the same sales template. So I 100% agree with you. I could talk to you for hours. I love how you bring a simplicity that is very no bullsh**, to be honest. And this is what my thing is about. I always say, don't trust the experts who are making things complex because they want to monetize on the fact that you don't know, right? Follow the people who make things simple and make it accessible for you. And so that's what I love about you and what you teach because you just make things so simple. How can people find you and how can people get into your world?
00:33:38 Sun: Yeah. So the best place is the Instagram. So Sun, S-U-N dot Y-I. Yeah. If you go there, like all my links to all my other socials and everything is on there. So definitely check it out.
00:33:52 Gloria: You're awesome. Let's keep this authentic, no BS train going. Thanks for being–
00:33:57 Sun: Thanks, Gloria.
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