Epiosode 44: How Introverts Can Speak Up, Talk to Media, and Structure Podcast Interviews with Communications Strategist Madeline Schwarz
PR and introverts are two words that don’t usually appear together in a sentence.
Initially, it seems that introverts already have this unfair disadvantage and that there’s just no way they can do any PR activities.
But if there’s one insight that PR has been teaching us, and it’s this—you can pitch yourself and your business by following a proven method that works.
For many introverts and business founders still doubting their abilities, the confidence you’ve been searching for may be found by immersing yourself in unconventional yet proven PR strategies.
It will take some fitting of the pieces of the PR jigsaw puzzle until you can finally have your breakthrough, and it will be all worth it!
And we’re not even telling you that you should stop being an introvert.
All it might take is that you, as an introvert or a business founder, discover and apply these strategies to help you communicate your message and position yourself as an expert in a world full of noise.
In this episode, our guest, Madeline Schwarz, shares practical insights and suggestions on how you can pitch yourself if you find it difficult to speak up or if you lean towards being an introvert.
“What I want people to take away is that public speaking and media appearances published in the media is a great way for introverts to get visibility on their business.”
-Madeline Schwarz
Madeline Schwarz is a Strategic Communication Advisor and founder of the B.U.R.S.T. Formula to communication. She's helped hundreds of introverts speak up at work and professionals across industries get their message across clearly in meetings, pitches, conference talks, panels, networking, and difficult conversations. She’s worked with founders of Fortune 500s.
Whether you’re an introvert, extrovert, or a little bit of both, you can definitely gain refreshing insights from this episode in crafting your PR pitch and structuring your PR presentations. You deserve to be heard! You deserve to be featured!
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
Why introverts should write and speak to the media for PR
Showing a mindset of resilience in pitching as an introvert
The PR hacks for introverts to navigate their way in pitching
Fitting the pieces of the PR jigsaw puzzle
How to construct concise and captivating PR presentations
If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachou.com/masterclass.
Resources Mentioned:
Gloria Chou's Masterclass: PR Masterclass
Gloria Chou’s PR Starter Pack: PR Starter Pack
Madeline Schwarz’s LinkedIn: Madeline Schwarz
Madeline Schwarz’s Website: madelineschwarzcoaching.com
Additional Resources:
Join the Small Biz PR Pros FB group
Listen On Your Favorite Podcast Platform
Follow & Review on Apple Podcasts
Are you following my podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today so you don’t miss any future episodes!
I would also appreciate it if you would leave me a review! Reviews help me make sure I am providing the content that you need! Plus, you will be entered to WIN a 1:1 pitch writing session with me where I will help you find your press-worthy angle! Click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review”.
Here’s a glance at this episode…
[1:13] For introverts, I think media is such a powerful way to get eyes on their business, get their message out to a larger audience because it doesn't depend on being the loudest talker or the first to jump in.
[2:47] Pitching has been a great practice in resiliency-building and getting comfortable with putting myself out there and being rejected and continuing to put myself out there. It's also been a great opportunity to reach more people.
[7:35] What I have found both in pitching and in business development is that the more you stand out at once, you just build on your own momentum.
[15:38] Doing a little bit of planning in advance makes it so much easier to then find the words and get your message across when you are live and unscripted, talking to someone new.
[20:46] I always use bullet points. So definitely, in a pitch, it's important to me to have it be organized and concise and easy for people to skim through it and see points one, two, three.
-
Madeline Schwarz 00:00
What I have really learned from being part of the community is that you can have a few core ideas but be open to really shifting the angle or their perspective on them.
Gloria Chou 00:12
Hey friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award-winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional, yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. So excited to have today a strategic communications adviser. She is helping quiet leaders speak up in a world of loud talkers. So if you've ever found it difficult to speak up, or maybe you find yourself a little bit more on the introverted side, this episode is for you. Madeline Schwartz is an incredible mission-driven entrepreneur, helping other founders, and she is a member of our PR Starter Pack. So welcome to the show.
Madeline Schwarz 01:07
Thank you. It's so nice to be here, Gloria.
Gloria Chou 01:09
Yay, and we're both in Brooklyn. So it's awesome.
Madeline Schwarz 01:13
Brooklyn in the house. Yes, so I love what you said about the fact that you're helping quiet leaders speak up. Can you tell me a little bit more about why it's so important for introverts to practice speaking, especially when it comes to speaking to the media, because that can sound scary, not only to introverts, but also to extroverts? Yeah. Well, I think there are a few things in that question. And the first is, for introverts, I think media is such a powerful way to get eyes on their business, get their message out to a larger audience because it doesn't depend on being the loudest talker or the first to jump in. If you think about the common dynamics that happen in meetings where introverts might get spoken over or interrupted because they're not the loudest. So it is this incredibly powerful way to reach more people and share your message. And the reason I think it's so important to practice is, if speaking in public, speaking on the fly makes you nervous, which it does for introverts and extroverts. I don't want to target one group here. The more you practice, the more you get used to articulating the words out loud. The easier it gets to do it.
Gloria Chou 02:33
That's so awesome. I mean, you've been on so many different things now. So how has pitching and speaking to media impacted your business and more importantly, your confidence or your sense of self? Or maybe the story about who you think you are in the world?
Madeline Schwarz 02:47
Yeah, pitching has been a great practice in resiliency-building and getting comfortable with putting myself out there and being rejected and continuing to put myself out there. It's also been a great opportunity to reach more people. So for instance, Introvert Dear, has huge, huge readership on their blog and just saw an immediate bump in subscribers to my mailing list when I had an article published there. The more you talk about your ideas, the better you get at explaining them to other people. That's why I think it's so helpful to get any practice. The other thing that's really changed for me is I've gotten a lot braver about raising my hand for opportunities even before I knew a lot about them, or whether or not I was the perfect fit. And I think previously, I would have researched something ad nauseam before I would put my name in the hat. And now, when I've seen things, I just raise my hand and volunteer and I figure you can always back out if you decide it's not a good fit for you. But if the opportunity passes by, and they go with someone else because you've never put your name in the hat, then you've missed out on valuable opportunities to get your business seen.
Gloria Chou 04:19
Yeah, and also connect with people who resonate with your message, who are like finally there's someone like Madeline out there who's sharing a story I truly resonate with.
Madeline Schwarz 04:29
Yeah, I agree. It's been a great way to meet more people to just say 'yes' to possibilities and things that I see come up. So for instance, someone had tagged me on LinkedIn when there was an editor at The Rosie Report looking for articles submission. Someone tagged me because they thought my message was on point. And I said, 'Sure, let's do it' before I had researched anything about the publication.
Gloria Chou 04:59
Yeah. I love it. The metaphor or the imagery that comes to mind when you said about just pitching yourself even before you're ready, it's kind of like planting a garden. I'm awful at keeping plants alive. But I can imagine that not everything will sprout. Not every plant will be perfect. But if you plant enough seeds, soon, you're going to have a flourishing cultivated garden. Whereas the person next door who's still looking and not sure, they don't even have their first plant. So I'm so glad that you worked on the mindset part because for so many people listening, it's not about the tactical strategies. We know how to pitch. There is a framework, whether it's my method, or whoever's method. It's really the mindset of being 'I don't really know so much about this topic, but I think I got a few things to say.' Can you touch a little bit about how you were able to get yourself to that point where maybe you saw something on HARO? Or maybe you saw something that you wanted to pitch, and it wasn't in your direct wheelhouse? But you're like, 'you know what, I'm just gonna pitch myself anyway!'
Madeline Schwarz 05:57
Yeah, I love that analogy that you used about the garden, because I actually am a gardener and I grew up on a farm. And so absolutely, if you don't plant any seeds, you definitely don't get any vegetables or flowers. As far as taking a risk and pitching to something that maybe wasn't exactly relevant, I saw one request on HARO, and it was about things to not say at a holiday party. I wrote back and pitched 'Things You Shouldn't Say to the Introverts at a Holiday Party.' It was a completely different take on it, and it did get published on some blog, and that got a lot of attention when I reposted it on LinkedIn. And the writer really appreciated that it was such a different perspective that she wasn't thinking about when you think of the normal holiday party faux pas.
Gloria Chou 06:56
Yeah, I love how when you overcome that mindset, the whole world is your oyster. You have so many opportunities now where you're like, 'I'm gonna do this, and maybe I'll do speaking, and then maybe I'll apply for some awards.' And let's be honest, you deserve to be in all of the rooms. We deserve, all of us, to be invited to any table. So it's about us believing that. Let's get down to the actual pitching. Can you tell us a little bit about what worked for you in terms of pitching and follow up because it's really scary for a lot of founders to just press that send button? I have worked with founders with five decades of experience, and they still question themselves and think that they're not ready to pitch.
Madeline Schwarz 07:35
Yeah, so what worked for me was doing it in batches and so not sending one at a time, which I know is something that you really talk about in the PR Starter Pack. But I think it's easy to send out one and then wait and see what happens before you send out anymore. What I have found both in pitching and in business development is that the more you stand out at once you just build on your own momentum. And then instead of sitting around waiting for that one person to write you back, you've just infinitely expanded the the options and the opportunities, and you have more plates spinning, and you're more likely to hear from other people. If I'm sending out one, I definitely want to send it to five at a time or more. That's one thing that really was helpful that I took away from your advice. The other thing too, was that, like I pitched, I decided I wanted to write for Introvert Dear that was a perfect place to meet my people. And I spent a long time writing an article because they had a minimum word count that was a bit longer than my normal word count. I just spent a long time really trying to perfect this article. I had researched their site. It seems so on point, and when I heard back from them, and I didn't hear back immediately, I followed up within the timeframe that they said to follow up on. They wrote back and they rejected it. And they said 'Oh, we actually, we find our readers don't really, or aren't that interested in this topic.' What was surprising for me is I had seen other things on their website on this topic. So I thought it was a sure thing because I was bringing a new perspective to the topic. But they said 'No. Not interested in that.' They weren't interested in any of the other article ideas that I had pitched either because I had pitched myself as a regular contributor and submitted a few different ideas at a time. I found this really disappointing or crushing if I'm honest and it took a little bit of time to get over it. it. Eventually I decided, 'Okay, I spent all this time writing an article. I know this content, this piece. My point of view is valuable. So I rewrote it. I cut it in half, and I submitted it to Forbes instead and got it published in Forbes Women. And so, I repurpose the content. Then over the summer, I got an idea for another piece that seemed relevant to Introvert Dear. It was something that I wrote for my blog, and it was about how communication is like swimming. And it's the perfect way for introverts to dip their toes into the water. I pitched this entirely new idea to Introvert Dear, and they bid on that one. They were like, 'Great! We would love to publish that. And so for me, it was really a a practice in moving on after rejection, in not being too embarrassed to go back to the editor at Introvert Dear, even though it was months later that I pitched something else. But to just realize they're not sitting around being mad that I didn't write them back immediately. And they're still really delighted to get great content for their website.
Gloria Chou 11:21
What is a hack that you can give?
Madeline Schwarz 11:24
Just continuing to refine ideas and that like one thing. I came up with an entirely new idea when I came to the mastermind call last week based on listening to other people. Connecting with other people in the community is a place that I have gotten new ideas to pitch.
Gloria Chou 11:48
That's amazing. I love that. Power and community. I mean, that's what we're all here for is is really co-creation. So I want to talk a little bit more about your method because I know not only have you had so much success pitching, but you also have your own strategies that's worked for a lot of people in terms of communicating in public. Can you talk a little bit about how introverts or maybe people who are not used to speaking up? How they can do that? I know, you said something about a puzzle and your framework. So please do share that.
Madeline Schwarz 12:15
Sure. Yeah, I like to think of presentations like doing a jigsaw puzzle. And early on in the pandemic, the first time I did a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle with my at the time six-year- old, we dumped out all of the pieces on the table, and he just started picking out particular colors and patterns that were in the middle of the puzzle. If you've ever done a puzzle of that size, that is not the most efficient way to go about it. And so I immediately taught him my puzzle strategy. You can use this same strategy for building out your presentations or your point of view and your talking points when you are speaking to the media or going on a podcast, for instance. That is to first start with the framework. When you have thousand pieces all just scattered about on a table, it's so much easier and faster if you first find all of the border pieces. So you sort those out, and you build the border first, and so that's your point of view. That's where you should decide at the very beginning, what is the main message that you want to get across in this presentation or in this speaking opportunity. Once you do that, then you can create your outline. So going back to the puzzle, that's where you would actually start sorting your pieces and those details of your presentation by color and pattern and section. And so you organize them, so that you can create a logical roadmap for your audience. Once you have that framework and your outline all established, then you start filling in the stories, the data, and the details of your presentation, and all of that having a strategy and going in this order makes it so much simpler to decide what you want to say and create an experience that will really bring your audience a lot.
Gloria Chou 14:19
Oh, I love a visualization. So can you give us an example of a topic and how you're able to use this framework to kind of round out all the different borders and pieces?
Madeline Schwarz 14:28
Yeah. Well, so for instance, thinking about our topic today talking about how publicity is great for introverts. What I want people to take away is that public speaking and media appearances are being published in the media is a great way for introverts to get visibility on their business. And then, once we know that's the topic and the message that I want people to share, then I can share specific things from my own experience or working with clients that helps create that story for other people in your audience who might be in the same situation wondering, 'Is this relevant for me?'
Gloria Chou 15:21
Oh, I love that so much. Now, obviously I have my CPR method. Would you say that this works in longer format for like a speech, for example, where it's like a little bit longer? Or do you also use the same one for like, let's say, an email or a podcast pitch?
Madeline Schwarz 15:38
Yeah, so that's a good question. I definitely developed this thinking more about speeches and having to create longer form content. However, it also works perfectly for a podcast, and especially for anyone who might be nervous the first or the second, or the tenth time that you are going to be interviewed on a podcast. Doing a little bit of planning in advance makes it so much easier to then find the words and get your message across when you are live and unscripted, talking to someone new.
Gloria Chou 16:14
Yeah, I love that. I think I'm gonna try that for my next episode. Figure out what the border pieces are, and then the main pieces, and then kind of in each one, talk about the stories or examples. I think we all have so much to say. All the tools and wisdom are within us. It's about just structuring it in a way that makes it easy to actually take action. So thank you so much for giving that to us. Is there anything else that you can share with us in terms of what you've learned about pitching yourself or speaking on podcast or working with journalists?
Madeline Schwarz 16:44
Yeah. What I have really learned from being part of the community is that you can have a few core ideas, but be open to really shifting the angle or the perspective on them based on the time of year or what's happening in the news or getting ideas from other people. So for instance, last week, you had a mastermind call for the community, and I came up with an entirely new pitch based on hearing other people speak at that event and their success getting media. It's the same general topics that I like to talk about, which are communication and leadership and team communication and communicating with introverts, but it just gave me a new idea based on hearing someone else.
Gloria Chou 17:37
Oh, I love to hear that. I had no idea that all this was going on in background. I love it. So now that you've mastered the art of the pitch, you have so many media features podcast, you're not afraid to speak up, what are your goals for this year, now that you have all the tools and skills that you can kind of draw upon?
Madeline Schwarz 17:58
Yeah, my goals for this year are to, one—speak on more podcasts, now that I have a bunch under my belt to continue pitching to podcasts and reach more women in business, both entrepreneurs and in the corporate world who are rising leaders or in positions of leadership and want to be more effective communicators. And then the second thing is to continue pitching my writing and and to get featured in the media about making communication more inclusive of introverts and making team communication more collaborative and creative. For instance, one of the ideas that I am going to pitch and this is what came out of the mastermind call last week, is why companies should be flocking to hire parents in their current town of work.
Gloria Chou 18:54
That's so good. That's a 'ding, ding, ding.' That's a relevant part of CPR. It's a great resignation, and then finding talent in this scarce market. I love that so much. One question that I had, now, obviously you know about follow up. It's so important subject lines, all the things, but what about data and using data points? Did you ever use a survey? Did you use third-party data to make your pitch a little bit more convincing to validate the idea?
Madeline Schwarz 19:20
Yeah, I have definitely use third-party data. So if I have seen an article published in Harvard Business Review or in a major media outlet, and I have something else to say about it, I will reference that article or publication and then pitch the topic because it's obviously relevant if those major publications are talking about.
Gloria Chou 19:46
So you're saying that you lower the bar here. We don't need to do our own surveys. If we can't, we can reference like, I don't know, like a Harvard Business Review or like a PwC or like a McKinsey report?
Madeline Schwarz 19:59
I have definitely referenced all of those. And I don't see a problem with that at all. Because it's a matter of taking relevant research that is available in the public and then adding your point of view to it and where you can provide additional helpful content because not everyone is gonna go read those 20 or 40-page McKinsey reports.
Gloria Chou 20:24
Yeah, I love that. So obviously, you put that towards the CPR method. With that, would you maybe put that kind of in the beginning of the pitch, like the beginning paragraph, like this is what's happening?
Madeline Schwarz 20:34
Yeah, I have definitely open pitches referencing McKinsey reports.
Gloria Chou 20:38
Okay. I love that. And now in terms of the length of the pitch, how many sentences do you use bullet points, attachments? What does it look like?
Madeline Schwarz 20:46
I always use bullet points. I don't include any attachments, courier directions, and just playing with how concise it can be. And being concise is one of the things that I teach people. So definitely in a pitch, it's important to me to have it be organized and concise and easy for people to skim through it and see points one, two, three.
Gloria Chou 21:14
Yeah, that's so good. It's about respecting the other person's time. I say this all the time that it takes more work, skill and expertise to really sharpen your message and get it down to a concise thing. We've all heard the saying, 'I didn't have time to send you a short email. So I sent you a long one.' So it's the same thing. It's this exact same thing. So I love that so much. What about using predictions? Have you ever used that in your pitch?
Madeline Schwarz 21:40
I haven't used predictions. But now that you mention it, I feel like I might spur some new ideas.
Gloria Chou 21:48
What about the closing sentence? I think a lot of people who are pitching, they don't understand. They don't know like the tone or the energy of how you should close the email. A lot of people think they're being too pushy if they're asking for to be featured. So how do you close the email?
Madeline Schwarz 22:06
I close and I don't necessarily think I have this down to a science. But just closing with, 'I'd love to be a resource to your readers or your communities.' So really, in the spirit of helping. And I'd say that's another big thing that's really changed for me in terms of mindset around pitching. And just to share a quick story. I was talking to a friend of mine who works at Ellevate network. We were just generally catching up, but she asked what I was working on. And I shared that I was writing an article and working on this new framework around networking. And she commented and said, 'Oh, yeah, that is absolutely a problem I have. I'm just starting to network in-person. It's so awkward, and I feel so uncomfortable.' And I said, 'Oh, I would love to talk about it on the podcast if you think that would be a valuable topic for your community.' It was really the first time that I saw an opportunity in the light of how you talk about it as we are being helpful when we're pitching as opposed to we are being salesy when we are pitching because I offered that purely out of service. And I think previously, I might have been in that mindset of thinking people were doing me a favor, as opposed to me being of service. That was the thing that just switched it for me when she was like, 'Oh, yeah, that would be great. We'd love to have you on the podcast.'
Gloria Chou 23:44
Mic drop moment for anyone that's multitasking. I hope you're listening to this because this is so good. It's like we always say our perception really dictates our reality. So if it's this, like banking, I don't think I'm going to get the feature. Maybe I'll get lucky. I have to trick the journalist. You're not going to get the feature. But if you know that you might be bootstrapping, maybe your website is not where it needs to be. But you have a mission, you have made an impact, you just simply want to share that. That is the energy that's going to be the driving force of the interaction with the journalist. So you know, I've worked with so many people, and now you've pitched so many times. It's really about what you believe is possible. So thank you so much for sharing that. It's about how can you be a solution for someone doesn't mean that you are giving someone groundbreaking, new story, new cancer research. It's a topic that people have already talked about. It's not about reinventing the wheel, but maybe drawing connections to bring more people into the conversation, or like you said, citing a data point, bring a new perspective to get the conversation going. So thank you so much for sharing that. All right. You shared with us so many gems. I love that you have your unique approach, which is a lot of times we are in a world of a lot of loud talkers, people who take a lot of energy and you're saying, 'No. there are so many opportunities for people who maybe are not that way to get featured in mainstream media to get visibility to get publicity, all these things that we associate with a certain type of characteristics. So I love that you are creating space and elevating these people. Thank you for that. And also, how can people find you, get into your world, learn more about your framework and strategies?
Madeline Schwarz 25:22
Yeah, so and the best ways to get in touch with me are on LinkedIn, Madeline Schwarz, or on my website, madelineschwarzcoaching.com. For anyone who's just getting started speaking on podcasts or preparing to speak in public for the first time, you can find a resource on my website, 'Four Steps to Get Clear on Your Message.' And this will help you get clear articulating your message, whether you have five minutes or five hours to prepare. So go download that and it will help you build your confidence and your clarity when you're getting started speaking.
Gloria Chou 26:02
So good. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm gonna go and download that right now. Hey, small business hero. Did you know that you can get featured for free on outlets like Forbes, The New York Times, Marie Claire Pop Sugar and so many more, even if you're not yet launched? Or if you don't have any connection? That's right. That's why I invite you to watch my PR Secrets masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods 1000s of bootstrapping small businesses used to have their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought after industry expert. Now if you want to land your first press feature, get on a podcast, secure a VIP speaking gig or just reach out to that very intimidating editor. This class we'll show you exactly how to do it. Register now at Gloria Chou pr.com/masterclass. That's Gloria Chou c-h-o-u pr.com/masterclass. So you can get featured in 30 days without spending a penny on ads or agencies. Best of all, this is completely free. So get in there and let's get you featured.