Episode 83: Bye Bye Toxic Bro Marketing with Ellen Yin
So much of business is accepted as the norm simply because it’s always been that way.
Regardless of the harm these norms cause.What happens when we reject bro-marketing and choose another path?
I’m proof that we can grow our businesses from a place of ethical marketing instead of mystery and manipulation. We have so many options when it comes to marketing and how we grow our business.
I was able to blow my goals out of the water by diversifying my strategies and trying new things. This one lesson has led to the highest ROI in my business.
So when you feel out of alignment, try new things and challenge the norm. I shared about this transformation with Ellen Yin on her podcast, Cubicle to CEO.
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
How I pivoted from a government career to CEO
What I’ve learned from slowing down
How I’m rejecting bro-marketing and harmful business norms
If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachou.com/masterclass.
Resources Mentioned:
Join Gloria Chou's PR Community: Small Biz Pros: By Gloria Chou
Know more about Ellen Yin and Cubicle to CEO: https://cubicletoceo.co
Additional Resources:
Join the Small Biz PR Pros FB group
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Here’s a glance at this episode…
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00:00 - Introduction
00:38 Gloria Chou: Hey friends. I'm Gloria Chou, a small business PR expert, award-winning pitch writer, and your unofficial hype-woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve, and that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional yet proven strategies for PR, marketing, and creating more opportunities in your business if you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self.
You're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. Now, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that I am on a journey to become my more authentic self. And in that journey, I have been deconstructing a lot around toxic bro marketing and the scarcity beliefs around me and the industry and how I can better become a leader that aligns truly with my values.
So this episode is an interview that I did on my friend Ellen Yin's podcast called Cubicle to CEO, which is a top 1 podcast. That asks women questions, you cannot Google, right? So we deep dive into the financials, into the nitty gritty, and that's why I think you're gonna love this podcast so much. You can check her out at Ellen Yin and also at Cubicle to CEO, where she interviews women from around the world to highlight financial transparency and how we can build a better world. So, I hope you enjoy this episode where I share very openly and honestly about my business and the journey that I've been on.
01:56 - Background music
02:02 Ellen Yin: Hello friends. I am excited to have my friend Gloria here on the podcast today. This is long overdue. Gloria and I have been friends for, I think, close to two years now, and I got the chance to hang out with her when I was in New York City last summer. She hosted us at her apartment afterward and we had dinner together, and it was, it was just.
An amazing time. She is truly one of the most genuine human beings you will ever get the chance to meet. So, Gloria, I love you. Thank you for coming on the show today, and I'm really excited to jump into your case study.
02:36 Gloria Chou: Love you right back.
02:36 Ellen Yin: All right, Gloria, you have a cubicle to CEO's story that's not necessarily super traditional, but I still wanna hear it like our listeners. Tell us how you made that jump from employee to entrepreneur.
02:49 Gloria Chou: Well, I was the employee of employees. I was actually in the government, so I was locked in for a 25-year career with a pension. So I used to be a US diplomat with a security clearance and I was looking at a very comfortable career. You know, got to go through the diplomatic line, have diplomatic community, all of the things right.
And I was just deeply miserable because it was very much a militaryesque hierarchy and it works for some people. It didn't work for me. And I felt so stuck, even though on the outside I had a picture-perfect life, right? I got to travel, I got to work abroad, and basically, after my first tour abroad, I was looking at three more years of doing the same thing in a different country, and I just couldn't do it anymore.
I probably applied to over a thousand jobs to try to leave while, you know, having a job. I, but I just couldn't. I wanted to work in PR because I love seeing people win. I knew I was a great communicator, but I probably had over a thousand applications. I had people putting in like references for me and they all wanted very cookie-cutter PR agency experience, which I never had.
And to this day I've never worked at an agency. So basically I had to move home, kill my ego, got back on unemployment, and started to rebuild my life from there. And I started my pr literally, I'm like, can you googling? There's like a siren going on. What's up, Brooklyn? Literally Googled the newsroom of the New York Times operator and then dialed zero and then convinced that person to pass me onto the next person and just cold-called because I had no contact with the media.
I never studied media, and I think from cold calling thousands of times getting rejected, and my phone slammed in my face. That's how I came up with my CPR pitching method that I now teach to entrepreneurs. So, That's my story.
04:33 Ellen Yin: I am obsessed with your story for so many reasons. One is that I think you and I are maybe in the small percentage of people who enjoy talking on the phone. I think a lot of people like hate phone calls. For a myriad of reasons, obviously, but I don't know. There's something very comforting to me about just being able to discuss in real-time with someone and, collaborate with someone in real-time, in a way that doesn't feel as energetically draining, or draining may not be the right word, but energetically. Present as sometimes being on video because you know you're actively listening, your whole body is participating in the conversation, whereas I feel like phone calls are just very kind of you. You know, you can be walking about doing your thing and still in conversation with someone. So I love that you cold-called me.
Kind of just worked your way through all of the gatekeepers that you needed to get to the source, or the journalist, or the editor, or whoever, and that you're so self-taught in this area. I bet that plays to your advantage sometimes not having a formal background in PR because you're not so boxed in by the limitations of what textbook PR is.
So, If you're a founder, especially if you are a woman-owned business or a woman of color, Gloria's approach to PR I think is just so simple yet so revolutionary, and highly recommend you spend some time googling Gloria Chou or Small Biz PR podcast if you want all the details on her background there.
But of course, the purpose of our show is to talk about stuff that you can't Google. So that leads us to your case study today, Gloria, which is all about. Comparing the launches between your February 2022 and your October 2022 launch for PR Starter Pack, which is your signature program, and how in the most recent one, you intentionally rejected a bunch of traditional marketing or bro marketing tactics that led you to your best launch ever in an economic downturn. So let's just start by setting the stage. What were your revenue numbers from February 2022? That launch compared to the October one.
06:49 Gloria Chou: So I wanted my first six-figure launch, so I was able to accomplish that in February. So we did a little bit over maybe 105,000. We got a lot more refunds than we did than in the latest ones. So move over to October, right? Fast forward to October 2022. We did 125,000.
07:09 Ellen Yin: Amazing
07:10 Gloria Chou: And way fewer refunds. And we pretty much spent the same amount of money on ads. So we were able to get so much more ROI because we were able to dial in on our messaging.
07:20 Ellen Yin: Mm. And I do wanna circle back later to this concept of, or not even concept, this data point on around refund rates, because this is something that I love your, that you're so transparent on because a lot of people don't, I mean, they kinda like to keep that hush, right? Like they have a refund. They're like, oh, let's not tell anyone.
You are very straightforward about it. And I think your self-awareness around even tracking this metric and looking for ways to improve is worth hearing. So I'll circle back to that, but let's, let's first start with like the list of essentially bro marketing tactics that you checked out the window. So the first thing that you did was you revealed your price at the beginning. So tell me about that decision. Why, why choose to state the price right from the get-go?
08:08 Gloria Chou: You know, traditionally we're told by marketers, you need to kind of get them to stay until the end. Give them a chance to win an iPad and kind of almost trick them into making a decision.
And I think because of the inundation of people being like, I don't want another course, like we're just so over it. I'm not sure that works anymore. Right? So in taking apart my messaging and going from February's launch to all of the work that I did around my scarcity mindset, healing my scarcity trauma, and the work that I did around, you know, how I can support women of color, that journey led me to see the ways.
Where I just brainwash into the status quo, where it's like, well, everyone does this. So I had to do that, and that was one of the first things that I did because my ethical copywriter, Brittany McBean, actually was the one that told me this idea. And she's like, you know, more and more people are doing this. I don't think it's really common, but I think if you do reveal it at the beginning, it's gonna be really powerful. And yeah, people are gonna leave. And they're gonna leave the room, whatever. And that's fine. You have to lean into the space where you're not trying to attract every person. You only want the hell yes people.
And when she said that, I think it's something clicked in my mind because I think before as course creators, we just want everyone to love us. Everyone can join, right? But that's actually not the key to success. I found that the more. Polarizing. I'm not saying that you should offend people, but the more polarizing you are in taking a stand, actually people lean way in. Yeah. You're gonna have people who are going to eject themselves out of the room. That, but that's fine. So when I did that and I revealed it, I saw the live chat going off and people were like, wow, this is amazing. Like this. Wow, this is, or some people were like, you know, this just not for me right now. Bye.
Or you know, people left and that's fine. But I saw that overall when I did that, most people stayed on until the end, even without all these gimmicks about staying on until the end when an iPad, things like that, they naturally stayed on until the end. It kind of almost took the pressure off because I literally say, here's something that I'm gonna do.
I know some of you might leave, but here is what I will show you at the end. Right? It's gonna lead to the next step. No matter if you join or not, I will still give the value that I promised when you signed up for the webinar, which is to teach my CPR method. So if most people did actually stay onto until the end,
[Ellen Yin] 10:22 - I think that is so powerful because, to your point, I think some of those gimmicks that are often used in marketing can almost be a little bit infantilizing, right? It's like you're telling someone, I don't trust you enough as an adult human being to be able to decide for yourself what's right for your business or an investment that you think is worthwhile or valuable.
But instead when you pre-frame from the very beginning like, Hey, this is exactly what you can expect today. When you spend your time with me, and this is what it's going to lead to and now, you do not have to join my program, but I'm telling you that's where this conversation will go. But either way, you're leaving the room with the value that you came for in terms of, you know, the promise of the, of the free class.
11:06 Ellen Yin: I just think that's so empowering. I think that it is someone. Shared that with me, I would feel even better about how I'm choosing to spend my time in that class. So I love that you had such great feedback and to your point, that the people who were not going to be the hell yes. People just left and filtered themselves out.
The second thing that I really thought was interesting that you did is around. Removing the value stack, which if you're listening to this, and I'm sure you've all been on a webinar and, and know what this is, but in case you don't, value stack is typically at the end of the webinar when someone's pitching their offer, they are showing like almost an itemized list of all of the different features or benefits that you're going to receive by purchasing. They assign a value to each of those things. You know, total the sum up, and then they usually slash the price into, you know, something significantly less. So it feels like a great deal. Now, I, I'm gonna insert my opinion here and say, I don't necessarily think that value stacks are inherently wrong, but I do think Gloria has a great reason for why she felt like this wasn't necessary for her class. So, Gloria, I would love to hear your take on this.
12:22 Gloria Chou: Well, I think traditionally from the funnel bros, right, the, the ones that kind of paved the way for the industry in the beginning when we're creating courses, we just did what they did, right? Because of it, they were the ones that were doing it the most. So we were like, okay, this is what it is.
Again, it's all about decolonizing your mind. And so as I was doing the work and figuring out what is true for me and what is just me, Being imprinted by someone else. I looked at the way that I gave into that by stacking all the value, and I felt like it didn't convince people, because if it did, then obviously when I took it off, the sales would be less, right?
12:56 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
12:57 Gloria Chou: So even though I, I did value stack in our earlier launch and our later launch, I decided to take away all those numbers and. People loved it because I talked to someone else and they said, oh, like they're rolling their eyes. They're like, I hate it when people say you can get all this for $9,999 today for $50.
And it, it's like, what? You said, it's almost tricking someone and it's a little insulting, I think.
13:23 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
13:24 Gloria Chou: And it almost sounds like an infomercial. Mm-hmm. So I decided to not do that. So I took it away. The entire column. And I could have said, you know, cuz we do have a PR database, which now is built on Airtable, got 80,000 contacts. I could say something like, normally software like this would be X, Y, and Z, right?
13:37 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
13:38 Gloria Chou: But I think there's a difference between like saying that and being like, 10,000. 10,000. 10,000. So for me, it's, it's more of anecdotal like evidence of this is how much it would cost. And not saying this module here is 500, because no one knows what the value of each module is, right? Like there's no. Real a barometer for that. So yeah, I took all of that away and I just revealed the final price.
14:03 Ellen Yin: I see your point there, distinguishing between inflating prices artificially so that you can have like a nice even number to come down to. What I mean by that is, you know, often in bro marketing it's like, okay, if you wanna sell your course for a thousand dollars and you want your value stack to be worth 10,000, so you can say, oh look, it's basically like 90% off, right?
And assigning random values. To, you know, like you said, modules or the value of the Facebook group or whatever, when it's not rooted in any sort of like, evidence-based context versus, as you said, it does sometimes make sense to share, oh, this type of access to information or this level of support is X amount of dollars in the marketplace.
14:47 Gloria Chou: Yeah.
14:48 Ellen Yin: But you're going to get a better value here today. The latter feels more educational to me.
14:53 Gloria Chou: Mm-hmm.
14:54 Ellen Yin: Whereas the former feels like, to your point, it just feels like people can't see it through what that is. So I like the way you distinguish that.
15:03 Gloria Chou: Yeah. Another thing I'll add is when you do put those inflated numbers or you assign an arbitrary number, you're assuming that your audience is. Only cares about saving money and that they only care about buying what's cheap, and that's not true. Sure, of course. Like, you know, as a child of immigrants, like Ellen, I'm sure you know, like pinching pennies was how we were raised, but that's not the type of audience I'm trying to attract because I.
I realize for you to advocate for yourself and rewrite the narrative of what an entrepreneur looks like through doing the sacred work of pitching, it takes more than just pinching pennies, right? So from a mindset shift, if you think about the law of energy, you are what you seek. If I just did all the value stack and I was like 90% off, I will only attract people who bought it because they're getting a deal.
But then maybe, the program is not for them because they're not looking for a transformation. So I do agree. Instead of putting the value of a Facebook group, I would put what the value is. The value is that they're validated, that they're not alone in the scary journey, and that someone can affirm them. To me, it's like, that's a better way to sell it. Here's what it is and here's what you get. Not, here's what it is and it's 90% off.
16:10 Ellen Yin: Oh, that's so, so good. Okay, this is gonna be a little bit of a tangent, but since you brought this up, I can relate, like you said, because we're both Chinese, we're both first-gen in terms of living in America, and I relate to this.
I guess this culture of if you can save the most amount of money, that is a win or a success. Right? And I saw a YouTube video recently that blew open my mind on this discussion between what is the difference between being cheap and being frugal and the way this person worded it was so just like groundbreaking to me. I know it's not a new concept, but the way they said it made sense to me where they said, cheap people. Only will buy things if it's the least amount of money. So to your point, they wanna get the best possible deal versus frugal people. It's not that they're not willing to spend money, but they're only going to spend money intentionally if they believe the value is there.
So they will pay whatever is right for the best value. And that isn't always the cheapest option, but they're going to be intentional with how they spend their money. That just resonated so much with me and what you said just now about not setting yourself up to attract people who only care about getting the cheapest deal. Oh my God, that was so good. Like, Yeah, that I'm like, okay, we can just end this conversation. Like you already, you shared great value just through that one piece
17:36 Gloria Chou: and the data proves it because I know we're gonna jump to this, but it's, it's refund rates, right? If people, if you're doing the scarcity thing, two hours left, one hour is left. And look, there's nothing wrong with offering a discount. I offer a five-day window. So it's not that there's no urgency, but if the whole thing is about. Provoking a nervous system response. Not from an empowered place, but like a FOMO place, right? A place of lack. You're gonna get more refunds because it, it's, it's a decision that's not full of intent and empowerment. And so that was another shift I made was, do I wanna trick someone into a nervous system response where they're. Foing or is it, they're so ready because the people who are ready and they see the value, not just trying to get 90% off, they will go in the program. They will live and breathe the values.
They will show up for you and they will get the transformation. And why are we even doing this if we're trying to sell courses to people and they're not even opening it, right? Like you hear about the statistic, people who get courses, like 90% of them don't even open it. My job is, I don't want anyone in my course that's not gonna experience transformation, that's not gonna reflect well on me.
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20:27 Ellen Yin: A hundred percent. And, I experienced something similar, in the final launch of my mentorship program last summer in August when we closed the doors to my 12-month group mentorship program.
We're so specific about calling out who we wanted in this program, exactly what the value is, exactly, what the transformation would be, and what we expected of them as students, as much as what they should expect of us as, you know, the coach or the educator or whatever we're delivering to them. And it was astounding, Gloria, just to visibly experience over the last however many months it's been since August.
The quality of questions, the level of show-up rates on our calls, and the type of wins that these last cohort of students are getting are so different because they were bought into the transformation from the get-go. They were not bought into, oh, can this be like a last ditch effort or like a, to your point, a FOMO, you know, push to join. So, ah, so good. I just, Yes, I'm saying yes to everything.
21:32 Gloria Chou: And you know what, Ellen, it's a very complex and emotion-filled process for all of us because on the one hand, I just said what I said, but on the other hand, I understand that people need a little bit of a push. Mm-hmm. So I struggle with that every day, honestly, where it's like I'm not the pillar, of ethical business.
Right. I have a long ways to go. Like for example, one of the things is a lot of people who are in the ethical marketing industry, do not offer a payment plan that is a higher total price. Hmm. Right. And I know, I know we have had a discussion about this and it's very contentious and that's something I struggle with because, you know, you can pay in full, or usually if you pay in in monthly payments, there's kind of an upcharge for that. So right now I do have that, but that is something that I struggle with and I and I wrestle with every day. So I kind of do see both sides.
22:20 Ellen Yin: Yeah, I, I, I get what you're saying because there's a reason that certain marketing tactics have always worked, right? Because it plays into the way that humans behave. Like you just said, there are times and situations where adding in a layer of urgency does benefit someone because nobody has helped when they're stuck in indecision, right? Like people who are just forever stuck in this no man's land. I don't know. I don't know. Like they, they don't choose either way.
Yes or no, they're not being helped cuz they're making no progress when they're stuck in that position. So helping them get off the fence and either decide yes or no in my book, both are wins because either way, that person has clarity on how they wanna move forward. And so, I agree with you that there are instances where it makes sense to provide a safe container for people to.
Make a decision, and sometimes you have to layer in those elements to make that possible. But I love what we're talking about here today, even though I, and it's not about being a perfect business, right? I think that's another like level of pressure that we put on ourselves. It's not about being. Like this shining moral example. I think it's about being conscious of how our decisions impact the people that we're trying to serve and, and doing our best to create an empowered decision, like you said, rather than, a lack of decision
23:52 Gloria Chou: And if I may, in terms of the energy of lack, because I'm all about energies. You, you know, when you like to try to close a cart and you get on like those 15-minute calls with people, like trying to convince them.
24:01 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
24:02 Gloria Chou: So I did that previously, not for the February launch, but previously. And what I found was when I was in that mode of trying to get them to convert, like showing them everything's in the portal and just doing a demo, that energy of urgency never really converted well.
24:17 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
[Gloria Chou] 24:18 - Right? Because it wasn't about me listening to them and like, what can I help you do? Right? It was more like, here's a program. I can't wait for you to join. And I noticed that when I do get in, because we all do, right, like scarcity has been ingrained in our, in my bones, it's not like I'm gonna wake up and completely get rid of it.
I do see a creeping up where I feel, it almost feels like a tightness in my chest where it's like, oh, hey, we, we gotta hit our numbers. We gotta go. And whatever you're doing from that energy, I don't feel like it ever works. And when I like to step away a little bit from my computer, as I did in the October launch, like literally between the two live webinars, like a thousand people, like, you know, between the two, I closed my laptop and I told my team, I'm like, you know what?
24:04 Gloria Chou: Whatever happens. I feel like we're all winners. I value you. And I just went, I went out for a walk, whereas in February I was such a dictator. I was like an A. Like the whole thing about leadership too, it's like scarcity versus, I was very adamant. I was like, we, we need to like, I. Do more testimonials like we need to come up, like hit our numbers.
And it was almost like I was like driving this like big machine and nobody, nobody wants to work with someone like that. No one wants to work with someone like that. So through my own journey of seeing the places where I gave into scarcity and was not the best leader that I could be, I see what's on the other side of that. And that is just, you give it your all and maybe it's time to take a break and just trust in the universe instead of trying with 20, 30 different solutions just to make it work and fit everything in.
25:43 Ellen Yin: I appreciate your honesty, and I'm, as I'm sitting here just listening, you know, I know you personally, but I, I know many of our listeners who are tuning in today. This may be the first time they're meeting you, and the fact that you are sharing with such. Open self-evaluation, like the fact that you're so willing to say like, this is where I fell short, or This is what was driving my motivations or desire. Like that to me, is just so powerful because I know you're not the only one who has felt that way.
I know I felt that way, you know, I know many people listening have probably felt that way and so. Already. I just, you know, again, wanna iterate how, how thankful I am for your honesty. That's one of my favorite things about you.
26:26 Gloria Chou: Thank you. Yeah, we can, we can go down the honesty rabbit hole. Maybe it gets too real. But that's for another episode, I think
26:32 Ellen Yin: for the after-show, by the way. Yeah. So, come back and, and listen to our after-show. It's always the last Tuesday, of each month on Instagram at cubicle to c e o, and we bring back all of our podcast guests. So anyway. The next thing that you did or rather didn't do is the previous PR starter pack.
I remember this because I bought PR Starter Pack. I don't remember when. I think it was in 2020. And at the time, it was a truly DIY course, right? There were no regular coaching calls or anything like that. So this time around in your most recent launch, you chose to add a lot of support, including monthly calls without increasing the price.
So tell us about this decision. What led to this decision?
27:13 Gloria Chou: So I, I think in online business you hear a lot, leverage your time, try to get the most, try to like to knock down any calls. These people don't deserve your time. And so even though I think boundaries are important, We have to remember why we started this business not to make a machine that spits all money. We started this business to make an impact in people's lives, and somehow in my journey of scaling my business maybe a little bit too quickly, I bought into this internalized capitalism, which is like more is always better, more at all costs.
And I don't know if your listeners know this, but that launch in February, Where I had like a lot of refund requests, and I still wasn't doing like a lot of the more ethical tactics. I suffered a complete mental breakdown because I had a huge open abdominal surgery where they took out an 11-centimeter fibroid in my uterus just three and a half weeks before the launch.
So the fact that I made myself work with Staples like and, and like, it's just, I look at that and I want to cry. For that person who thought that on day three of basically having a C-section I got back on the computer because my goal was six-figure launch, six-figure, figure, launch, and guess what? I did it.
And it felt freaking awful. I was such a terrible person to my team. I was so worried about the people who wanted refunds instead of celebrating our success, I was like, what happened here? And I just spiraled into this ball of negative energy because I wasn't aligned, I wasn't right. I was just chasing that number with those zeros.
So I think after, you know, doing this like shiny object like oh six-figure launch, I did it. I was like, something has to change because I am reaching all my goals, but I'm more unhappy than ever. And so I spent a lot of work, like hiring coaches, like therapists, like all the things to figure out why is it that the more money I made, the less happy I became.
And the reason was that I was just chasing a number and I got further and further from my why, which is to make women of color and bio founders feel seen. So I made a conscious decision on this launch. To add monthly workshop-style training calls. The last time I did this call, Ellen, it was a 60-minute call. I stayed on for three hours.
29:24 Ellen Yin: Wow, that's incredible. I mean, and, and I'm not surprised cause I've been on one of those calls before and your students, they show up. I mean, they have such great questions. I always kind of, you know, walk into any sort of q and a style or workshop style environment and.
Assess like the kind of like the caliber of the conversation happening, you know? And I feel like people who ask high-quality questions, I'm always so impressed by those people cuz it tells me how they think, like the way their brains think. And so I love that you're getting so hands-on with your students.
I guess a follow-up question to that is, now that you're implementing these monthly calls and some of them are perhaps extending for longer than you had planned, Is there any part of this that feels unsustainable to you at the level that you know, at the level of support you're providing without, let's say, increasing the investment? Is, is the current capacity doable for you?
30:23 Gloria Chou: I think that's a good question, and that leads me back to what I was trying to say, which is there's always this, this thing like, oh, there are boundaries, and then there's like giving. And I think that in business, for some reason, we're taught that those are at odds.
Like somehow you cannot serve people for free. And have a sustainable business. And I think I read somewhere at Simone Grace Soul, who's like my hero. She's like, being a good marketer is helping as many people as you can for free, and being so good at that, that people wanna buy yourself. And when I read that, I was like, what? What was she talking about? And then I dove in more and she has this wildly successful business and she doesn't, you know, do any kind of like discounts or you know, promos. And I started to think about how I could apply that in my business. And I started thinking, what are some of the things that make me feel like a.
Chest tightness. You know, like getting on those calls, like trying to convince people, which is the energy of seeking and chasing versus like, When I'm on those calls, time just flies. And I just love being on those calls. And so for now it feels like it gives me energy and so it doesn't drain me. And I'm, I'm gonna keep doing that. And I also started to do free in-person events whenever I'm in a city just to meet, you know, my, my members and I always get catering from women of. Color bakers, and winemakers and they love it. I mean, sure, I could probably charge for it cuz I have a budget. I'm, I'm probably paying no less than a thousand dollars each time I do this.
But it just makes me feel so happy. And I think after my terrible, like surgery and then, you know, the, the burnout, that was one of the things I wanted to do to get back to my why. And making sure that those women felt seen and connected, even if there was no monetary return, like the cosmic universe, like the energy. I know it's gonna come back to me in one way or another.
32:05 Ellen Yin: Yeah, I, I'm so encouraged honestly by everything, everything you're sharing, and this kind of leads right into. One of the hot takes I wanted to hear your opinion on, which is you said people don't want more content, they want community and connection, and you just referenced that you are doing these in-person meetups in, cities from time to time and, and that's an amazing way to foster community and connection.
What are some other ways that you are working well to add in those elements of community and connection through the experience that you're creating for your students?
32:46 Gloria Chou: Yeah, I mean, I think the business model of like courses, it's, it's dying out. I think there was a gold rush and now people are over it.
So I wrote an email to my subscribers. I was like, throw your course in the trash because I get so offended when people are like, oh, not offended. But when they call me. Program a course or they are already skeptical because they've been burned. Right? Like, raise your hand if you've bought a course that you've never opened.
I still have one that I haven't opened, I bought it two years ago, and it's not the person's fault, it's just this is just, we're saturated with content. People don't want another course. They don't want more content. We have so much content. What gets people staying is. People wanna feel seen, they just want to know that they're not alone in this journey, right?
That you can affirm their struggles or their viewpoints or maybe connect them with someone else on the call. So what I do now and, and what I've always loved to do, cause I'm, I just love to connect people and that's why. You and I, I see our kindred spirits, cuz you're the same way. But when I'm on the call, I'll be like chatting with them.
Like, oh, you should meet this person. She also makes a hair product, or you should meet her. She's also in Atlanta. So even though I don't have like a formal, like every city Facebook group, I'm constantly trying to connect them, which goes to my second point of scarcity, as a lot of people say, well, you know, if you make everyone connect and they're just gonna leave you, they're gonna, they're gonna leave the group.
Right. They, don't need you anymore. And I don't, I don't find that to be true. I find that the more you connect with people and make them feel seen, the more they have something to rally around a common value, which is being a member of your community.
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35:32 Ellen Yin: Yeah, that's so good. I have experienced this personally in a few weeks. I'm interviewing two members of my coaching program that I retired. Mindy and Juliet, who you guys will get to meet. And they are incredible women who met through the program and through their friendship, through their connection to each other, they both reached their first $10,000 month, which was, you know, the transformation that they had joined the program intending to want to get to.
And not only that, I mean, that's the tip of the iceberg. It's really about all the other amazing collaborations that they've done. Done in pursuit of growing their businesses. And I couldn't agree more that there's so much value when you are the common denominator between connecting people. It, it, it's, it's such a value that people don't think of as value in, in the traditional form of, oh, let me give you like an exchange of information.
But I think it's one of the best ways you can create value, especially, and this is kind of a tangent, but. Oftentimes when people are brand new to entrepreneurship and they're asking, how can I create value if, you know, I, I don't have a whole lot to offer at the beginning, and I tell them, look if you can focus on finding one person in your network that you can connect to someone else that you meet, Just that one action alone can create undeniable value in ways that you have no idea how that will play out in years to come.
And so I'm, I'm so glad you brought that piece up. I also wanna add one more kind of thought to piggyback off what you said. Like, your eval, throw your course in the trash. I, of course, as someone who helps people create online courses, do have a slightly different opinion on the value of courses.
But to your point, There is a difference between a DIY course and an actual mentorship program, a coaching program, or an experience of some sort. And I think where people get burned by courses is when people try to present it as one thing when it's something completely different. And so I think you have to be.
So, so very intentional about how you are positioning what you're creating for someone. Is this truly meant to be a self-digested, self-guided tool for them to, you know, take this knowledge, take this framework, and implement and get a result, or is this meant to be a community? You know, a mentorship, whatever it is, and, and you have to be so clear about what you're actually offering.
And then I also think the best courses that I've ever taken, the ones that truly actually did change my life, were the ones that didn't try to be everything. To everyone, right? They didn't try to be like, oh, this is your all-in-one marketing course for everything you could ever know about marketing your business.
Instead, it was like, here's one very specific skillset or one very specific result that I'm going to teach you, and I'm going to use my course framework as a filter for all of the competing information out there and try to get you. On the most efficient path from point A to point B. And those types of courses are the ones that I think create transformation in people.
So anyways, that's just kind of, my add-on thought to what you shared.
38:51 Gloria Chou: Yeah, I think specificity is so good. I mean, they say the riches are in the niches, right? So yeah. People are not going to believe that one course is going to solve all of their problems. So don't be afraid to, I always say in my, in my pitching training, peel away the layer of an onion.
I wanna get to that juicy core. You, you know, you, you don't want the whole onion because just more is better, you know? Mm-hmm. We just, we want to have that juicy core. So that's what I, I do agree. If it's a very specific thing and they're not saying, we give you support and then. You're in a Facebook group with 10,000 people, just make sure that you're aligned in the level of support so people feel like they're seen.
39:24 Ellen Yin: Yes, yes. Totally. Delivering on what you say you will do. I think that is such a huge trust builder. Speaking of, again, you getting just more connected, and more generous with your time with people. One of the things you did in rejection of row marketing, was this most recent launch, as you did get on sales calls, but not the.
Ones that you were talking about before where it was like the last 15 minutes before the cart closed and you felt this like pressure to get someone to buy, but to spend time with people understanding what they needed from you. How did that go? Walk us through your structure for how you implemented those calls.
What types of conversations were you having on those calls?
40:02 Gloria Chou: I think one thing that we're afraid to do as entrepreneurs are to admit that we have something else that could be lacking and to be, to work on. And so it took me forever, Ellen, to have like a feedback loop where if people didn't buy it was like, why didn't you buy?
Right? And like, actually tell me. And, that was just me closing myself off to growth, right? Because that was my ego. So after this, this launch went well. I got on the calls. With a couple of people just sit through kind of like, you know, where are the gaps in the messaging or what, what is going on?
And these people, you know, they were not going to buy. And it was okay because that was so much information that allowed me to understand my audience more. Because remember the whole point is not to. Convert everyone.
40:44 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
40:45 Gloria Chou: It's how can I get my messaging even more dialed in so the hell no people can take way, like 10 sets back, and get the hell yes people in there. So in opening myself up to feedback, both in calls, emails, surveys, you know, after the, you just, it's a gold mine of information. So I encourage everyone out there to put a feedback survey everywhere you can in your program, in your emails and even do a contest. Just the more information you can get, the better.
41:12 Ellen Yin: That's so smart. So you have these calls with people who didn't buy to tell you why they didn't buy, and then you're also implementing like you said, these forms and surveys to your actual students who did buy on their experience as they're going through. What are some, just kinda as like a bonus question here, what are some powerful questions that you're asking on these surveys or forms that you are seeing really? Insightful responses from,
41:37 Gloria Chou: Well, one of the things I think is hard for people as entrepreneurs is when people ask for refunds, right? It's like, ouch.
41:43 Ellen Yin: Yeah.
41:44 Gloria Chou: So it hurts, it doesn't feel great, but that's probably the best feedback you're ever gonna get.
41:49 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
41:50 Gloria Chou: Because it's like, what is it about? This program that you wanted to get a refund? Right. We don't ever wanna admit that we have refunds, but everyone gets refunds. Right. To, for me to understand where the gaps were, I wanted to just basically get the calls. People who asked for a refund, some of them didn't wanna get on the phone, you know, they're just like, this is not for me.
But I got so much information that allowed me to have a way better process for onboarding. Because one of the things about this, Ellen, is like, we're not expert course creators. You know, I'm not like a course creator, a magician with like all the nice. Templates. I just created this based on what I knew.
So from a UX point of view, from a customer process point of view, I knew I was lacking, right? Like, where does a journey start? So by having them tell me like, you know, this wasn't as clear or, you know like I would've preferred onboard in this way, we're like redoing the entire onboarding process where we tell them it's kind of a pick your adventure, where like they get in and they pick.
What industry they're in and their goals? And then we direct them to the modules. Because there's so much in there, right? I mean, there are gift guides, there are podcasts, there are product guides, there are entrepreneur features. So I think having that feedback is what allowed me to completely revamp my onboarding.
42:57 Ellen Yin: That's so valuable. I agree with you that you know, in the same way, that a lot of business owners may not be great salespeople, may not be great marketers to begin with, right? Because their interest or their area of expertise is in something. Entirely different. Same thing. I, I like that you pointed out that just because you're a subject matter expert, so like for you, you are brilliant with public relations.
That doesn't necessarily make you brilliant at user experience in courses. And so that's a really great delineation. I'm glad you pulled that piece out and that you're actively working to improve that. And I do wanna shout out, by the way, for all those listening, Gloria's refund rate, she was so.
Vulnerable and generous in sharing this information. But in the February launch, it was 10%, and in October it dropped by nearly half because of some of those, you know, changes that you implemented. So I just wanna congratulate you, friend, like the fact that you listened to that feedback, took it with Grace, and implemented it and are seeing real data-driven points showing that you're having success with that.
That's huge. That's a lesson. I think we could all take a page out of your book.
44:05 Gloria Chou: Thank you. Sometimes, you know, you, you talk about like the wound, right? And you wanna just keep putting a bandaid on there. Mm-hmm. And we don't wanna talk to people who got refunds because it's not a happy thing. It's like, yeah, you got a refund.
So a lot of times we just completely ignore that audience. We, we either take them off or, you know, we put 'em in the closet, but by literally opening up that wound and putting disinfecting on it and like asking them some things didn't feel great, right? Because it's like this, my course is perfect. What do you mean right now?
So, doing that and subjecting myself to criticism has helped me. A lot.
44:36 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so true. It, it's probably one of the hardest things we have to grapple with because so much of what we create feels very personal. Right. It's like an expression of ourselves. So it can feel very personal when someone rejects that, but I think that's the character growth that we all have to go through as you said.
The final thing I wanted to touch on that I loved that you did in, in this particular launch is that you sent freebies. To people who didn't join. So you intentionally follow back up with these people. Tell us about that strategy. What freebies were you sending them if they didn't join? How did you?
Initiate that conversation. Was this like a personal dm? Was this, a mass email to everybody who didn't buy, walk us through that.
45:18 Gloria Chou: Yeah, I, I think even taking five steps before that is, I think we've been taught in the online world, which is trying to have like as least amount of effort for the most amount of revenue, right?
45:28 Ellen Yin: Mm-hmm.
45:29 Gloria Chou: And I think that works if it's like an algorithm or a machine, but. Especially now, people want that personal touch. So whether it's one DM voice note, 30 seconds to be like, Hey, I saw that you sign up for the webinar. Let me know if you have any questions right now. I don't want you staying up until like three in the morning and burning yourself out.
But the more you can show them that you're real. A person just so you can just extend that hand to be like, I'm here and I see you. That's better. So obviously, I could not get, you know, on the phone with like thousand people registered. Right. But yeah, if I was on Instagram, I might see someone being like, Hey, like I signed up for this class.
And I'll be like, oh, cool, I saw that. You know, you're from here. I'm from here too. Or, oh, like I, I love these bags that you make. So it's just, it has to come from a place that works for you. I'm not recommending everyone get on the phone with every single person, but the more personal touchpoints, the better.
And what we did was even before they signed up for the webinar, In the welcome email of like, Hey, you signed up for this live launch. This, by the way, is about live launch, not, not the Evergreen. So, hey, I saw that you signed up for my live webinar. Just to get you started. Here are three things that I, you know, wanna show you to help you.
So it might be a little template, it might be a five-minute video or something so that you're giving value before they even get on the masterclass. So it's almost like you know that they know you in a little bit. And if you can't do that, what I did is after the webinar finished, And the sales cycle ended, you know.
Why didn't you buy a survey? Right. Getting real open and vulnerable and for the people who did respond with, with certain things, I gave Taylor responses so people were like, well, you know, I'm a nonprofit. I don't, I don't understand if this was for me. And then I would just basically be like, oh, if you're a nonprofit, you really should take this PR strategy.
You're like, listen to this podcast episode. Right. So I love podcasts because it's right there. To see what kind of freebies you can have to give people, whether it's a podcast or a video training that you can cut into 30 seconds that you have like in template form that you can just send off to people.
So that way it's not like, oh, you didn't buy, okay, buy, you're dead in my book. Right?
47:26 Ellen Yin: hahaha
47:27 Gloria Chou: It's like, yeah, exactly. Because people go through like three months. Before they convert, because this is not like an easy program that's like dance on Instagram because it's like once you sign up, you're gonna have to like put yourself out there.
And that's scary for a lot of people. So even so I realize what I'm doing is making people feel confident to even put themselves out there. So there's a lot of mindset work that needs to be done so people don't buy all the time on the first try. And that's fine. So when we did our data, people usually stay on my list for like three months before.
They're finally convinced. And so during that time, that is your time to be adding value. Hey, did you hear the podcast interview? Oh, by the way, you're a fashion brand. Why don't you listen to this episode? Why did I interview the fashion editor at Allure?
48:12 Ellen Yin: That's so interesting. Essentially, what you're doing is like, let's say they don't buy, you are preparing them for the next opportunity, for when it might be a yes for them by guiding them to the next step, whatever that looks like, right? Whether you're sending them to a podcast episode, whether you're giving them a template or just a, you know, a quick tip. I love that approach.
I feel like that. Just shows how much you care about each person, and to your point, if, if your whole mission and your whole why is helping others feel seen, what better way for someone to feel seen than for you to follow up in that way and, and give them that next step to encourage them in that path, whether they choose to work with you or not.
Ultimately, this conversation has just been. So refreshing, for me, Gloria, but I'm sure for so many of our listeners too, just hearing you share so openly, so vulnerably about this whole process of how you've rejected these tactics that have been so ingrained into our industry. I wanted to wrap up this case study, and interview with a bonus.
It's almost like a little mini case study, but like a bonus hot take from you because this was something you shared with me in DMS that I was like, oh my God, like so hard to choose which case study we're gonna talk about because they're both so good. So this concept, speaking of doing things the non-traditional way, You have this hot take that people do not need to be on social media to grow or market their businesses.
And you, in fact, yourself, I think made your first $100,000 in your business without social, and you did it through this. The mind-blowing thing that I've never even thought about doing, is Slack groups. So can you quickly just debrief us on what exactly that means? Like what groups did you join?
What were you doing in these groups, and how did that result in revenue for your business? I.
50:09 Gloria Chou: So for my audience, mostly women and founders, there's a lot of Slack groups and communities like I fund women and female Founder Collective, and they have Slack groups where there's like maybe 10, 30, 60,000 and even more if it's a startup group, right?
I don't like 10 Slack channels. And I realized that during the pandemic, you know, it was like a clubhouse, right? And then, people were active on Slack and I got connected with, I fund women first because, I heard about their Slack channel and then I thought, Hmm, I just created my new Instagram account.
I have about 300 followers. There's no way I can compete with other people, right? I'm not like, great at social media. How can I give value but still get a lot of people in my orbit, so I'm not doing one-to-one, right? One-to-one teaching. So what I did is I came up with my presentation, which is now like, my signature masterclass.
And I said, I, I put it to them like this. I like Slacked the founder. I was like, Hey, I noticed that all of your founders in these Slack channels have been asking about PR and crowdsourcing and how they can get a PR campaign going for their launch. You know, this is what I do and I'm happy to host a free, you know, live training that can be recorded and for anyone to watch.
So you're providing value right away. So that's life. You have 60 people live, and then I give them a freebie. In the email follow-up, you're creating free content for them and then it goes into their portal. So then anyone that, that accesses it, it just keeps giving you that visibility. Right? Also SEO.
So that's kind of how I started my business, was just doing these free workshops. Now it's a lot harder to come up with a coherent presentation, like how, you know, the whole thing than just posting on social media, but, but I feel like so often people don't wanna do the. The thing that's gonna move the needle.
So they do a lot of other things. I'm like an ADHD procrastinator, so I'm like vacuuming and trying to get a quick win by, you know, cleaning my sink, right? Because it makes me feel good. So I've been there. Yeah. You can tell I'm stressed when I start vacuuming like five times a day just to give myself a little, it's like, yay, I did something right.
But I'm like putting off the main thing, so I understand it's like a daunting task. Like, oh, I gotta create this. Presentation, but it doesn't have to be like a huge keynote tech talk, right? It could just be like, here's what I've learned on, you know, different slides and then a different case study.
And now with AI tools, Ellen, I mean, just have that, have the AI tools spit out all these slides and then use that to position your authority and then when they invite you on their platform as a vetted coach. When you have credibility, you have the audience, and you're leveraging that community, to me, that's much better than spending my time on social media all day.
And one day I might get hacked, I might get banned. I don't know. It's all in the cards, but I don't own my social media.
52:45 Ellen Yin: Yeah, I love your creativity there and how you took such an unconventional approach to start your business, to start that visibility. And I think it just speaks volumes. Again, it's just another testament to the power of leveraging other pre-built communities outside of your own when you don't have an existing audience.
And I think that's so encouraging for anyone who may be listening, who also finds themself in that boat, where maybe they have a really small audience on social. Maybe it's not their favorite thing to do, and just. Being able to see another example of a successful founder of a successful entrepreneur like yourself who has done it differently I think, is just going to blow open their minds to what is possible and to encourage them to think outside the box. So, yeah. Anyways,
53:31 Gloria Chou: One more thing I wanna add about social media is, Look, we know that social works, right? Like Ellen, your social media's off the chain. I'm always like, how can I get my stuff to look like hers? Like your stuff is amazing, but it should not be your only thing, right? You have your long-form content, your guest podcasting, and your speaking.
So I'm looking at my time, right? I'm always thinking, is this a $10-an-hour task that I can delegate, like social media? Which, by the way, is not searchable. Or am I building a $ 10,000-an-hour asset like guest podcasting, which is SEO and back? Am I speaking on a panel? Right. And you can use that then to create social media, but I never like creating content on social media just to create it.
It's always from like a reposting of like for example, this episode right where I'm gonna get. Six or seven pieces of content. So it's all about trying to think like, how can I leverage my time? How can I create long-term assets? And not just, okay, I'm gonna turn on my camera and, and hope that the algorithm Gods like me today.
54:22 Ellen Yin: So smart. Yes. Say it again. Well, rewind if you're listening. Gloria, thank you so much. Where can our listeners connect with you further? And we'll also link the masterclass by the way that Gloria has been referencing in this episode. In the show notes for you today. So if you wanna go click over and watch and learn how you can pitch yourself and get media coverage, we'll make sure to include that.
But where else, Gloria, can people connect with you?
54:45 Gloria Chou: So I am on Instagram. I don't have a ton of following, you know, but it's better than before. I'm learning at Gloria Chou pr, And then also have my podcast called Small Business pr. Ellen has been on it. She has a fantastic, fantastic episode on how to pitch for a podcast, and you just hear it from the Queen herself.
So small business pr. Yeah, and, if you dm me the word pitch on Instagram, I will give you a little freebie. How about that?
55:11 Ellen Yin: Ooh, very generous. Okay, thanks, friend. Yes. So you heard it here. Dm Gloria, the word pitch to get your freebie, and thank you so much again for your time today.
55:22 Gloria Chou: Thank you.
55:23 Outro: Hey, small business hero. Did you know that you can get featured for free on outlets like Forbes, the New York Times, Marie Claire, pop Sugar, and so many more, even if you are not yet launched or if you don't have any connections? That's right. That's why I invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods and thousands of bootstrapping.
Small businesses use to hack their PR and go from being unknown to being credible and sought-after industry experts. Now, if you wanna land your first press feature, get on a podcast, secure a V I P speaking gig, or just reach out to that very intimidating editor. This class will show you exactly how to do it.
Register now@gloriaChoupr.com slash masterclass. That's Gloria Chou, C h o u pr.com/masterclass so you can get featured in 30 days without spending a penny on ads or agencies. Best of all, this is completely free, so get in there and let's get you featured.