Episode 147: Why Your Sales Page Isn't Selling with Marisa Corcoran

 

WORDS and writing--the basics of communication especially for online businesses, are critical for sales and getting new leads. That's why today I invited my friend and copywriting expert Marisa Corcoran to talk about how to fix your sales page if it's not converting to as many sales as you'd like it to, as well as helping you understand the simple fixes to your copywriting so you can stand out and get more revenue. Marketing and consumer behavior are changing, so this episode is a must listen if you want to not just survive, but THRIVE this year! You'll also learn about the different types of "copy personalities" and find the one style that suits YOU, so you can connect with your customers authentically while growing your sales!

Here’s What We Cover and More:

  • Common copywriting blunders include getting too stuffy or leaning on tired clichés and how to keep it fresh and fun.

  • Being specific in your messaging is key—it lets your personality sparkle and shine!

  • "Copy stars"—these archetypes help you discover your unique writing voice and make your copy stand out.

  • Building your own "word closet" full of your favorite words and phrases to keep your copy authentic and uniquely you.

  • Strategies for building relationships with customers through personalized copy.

  • The need for diverse content to cater to different buyer personas.

  • The role of AI in copywriting and the importance of maintaining a human touch in writing.By focusing on crafting evergreen content, maximizing its repurposability and harnessing the power of media attention, entrepreneurs can build lasting relationships with their audience and convert content into sales on a budget,

Using these game-changing ideas, improve your sales page and increase your income! Discover your own "copy personality," learn simple changes that will make a big impact, and interact with your audience in a very real manner. Being real is absolutely vital as marketing changes quickly. Hit play now to turn your copy into a potent instrument for personal development and deep connections.


Product Businesses! Download my free HOW TO GET INTO A GIFT GUIDE/PRODUCT ROUND UP roadmap for free HERE to get more sales and traffic to your site this season.

If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachoupr.com/masterclass


Resources Mentioned:

Join the PR Secrets Masterclass

Get the PR Starter Pack

Join the Small Biz PR Pros Facebook Group

DM the word “PITCH” to us on Instagram to get a pitching freebie https://www.instagram.com/gloriachoupr 

Connect with Gloria Chou on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/gloriaychou 

Join Gloria Chou's PR Community https://www.facebook.com/groups/428633254951941

Follow Marisa Corcoran on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mtoni/ and

Check out her website: https://marisacorcoran.com/

 

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Transcript

00:00:00 Gloria: Hey, small business heroes. Welcome back to Small Business PR where we make marketing and PR super accessible for the everyday small business underdog. Now copy and personality. You might be wondering, what do those things have in common? And why should I care? I don't care if you own a product or if you're just starting your first business, or if you're a coach with tons of clients, you got to listen to today's episode because copy your ability to communicate in text to any audience that's at the forefront of how you make sales.

00:00:26 Gloria: And today I have none other than my personal friend and copy queen herself, Marisa Corcoran on the podcast. Now we have a lot of copywriters that I'm friends with. The reason why I wanted Marisa to come in is because she injects amazing personality into copy so that you truly can stand out. So welcome to the show, Marisa. 

00:00:44 Marisa: Oh, Gloria, thanks so much for having me. It's so great to be here with you. I feel like I told you this already, I feel like I've known you my whole life. I feel like in another life we were... We're like sisters somewhere in another life. So it's so great to be here with you and with your listeners. This is awesome. 

00:01:00 Gloria: You know, it's so funny, we have a lot in common. Both of us were raised by a single parent after our fathers passed away very young. I think that's a very kind of formative experience. And then also like both of us are Leos.

00:01:17 Marisa: Our mothers, how did they, my gosh, I know. It's like, is your mom an Aries by chance?

00:01:22 Gloria: No, she's actually an Aquarius. So very different than me. 

00:01:25 Marisa: Okay, my mom is an Aries. 

00:01:28 Gloria: So you have more in common than probably— 

00:01:29 Marisa: Yeah. Okay. My dad was an Aquarius. I was an Aquarius. But again, as you said, like he, you know, I was very young when he died. So I didn't know him really to know, you know. 

00:01:41 Gloria: But you know, everyone says I get my personality from him. So I don't know if people say that about you and your dad. 

00:01:45 Marisa: Oh, every yes. People will. I remember being at my cousin's wedding. This is like in 2019. I always say like in the before times. And my aunt Sharon had come up to me like in the middle of the wedding, I was dancing. And she was like, you remind me just like, you are your father. You remind me so much of your father. So interesting, right? 

00:02:06 Marisa: At the time there I was, I was like, you know, in my mid thirties or whatever, it is just so wild that, you know, so much of his personality is mine, even though I didn't live with him. You know, he died right before I turned two years old. So I didn't know him in the way that, you know, I could mimic his mannerisms or personalities or things. So it's just interesting that it's a total just like nature versus nurture thing. 

00:02:30 Gloria: And you know, we're both entrepreneurs too. And so I don't know if your dad was, but my dad was so it's yeah, it's crazy. My dad passed away when I was three. So totally get what you mean by that. But you know what? Through us, their legacy lives on. So— 

00:02:41 Marisa: It's so true. It's so true. I always think everything actually the very first season of the Copy Chat premiered on what would have been like a birthday of my dad's. It premiered February 16th, which was my dad's birthday, 2019. And I always feel like that is not, I didn't even realize it when I first did it, but as it got closer, I thought, wow, that's interesting that that's the date, you know? 

00:03:05 Gloria: I could go real deep into numbers and astrology. My husband's like looking at me and rolling his eyes. He thinks it's all BS, but we know, we know what we believe— 

00:03:13 Marisa: No, I'm with you. I'm with you. Is he a Leo? 

00:03:17 Gloria: No, he's a Sagittarius.

00:03:18 Marisa: He's a Sagittarius. Leo's love Sagittarius though. 

00:03:22 Gloria: Yeah, exactly, it's good. And I love how in the first three minutes of this episode we're already calling in the people who are like astrology and like woo woo and like the people who are listening, being like, what the hell is this? Like, they're just like, next. 

00:03:36 Marisa: No, it's like, yeah. Well, I actually talk about this a lot that how these kinds of things is what can draw in your ideal people, which I know we'll talk a little about a bit about when it comes to copy, but actually bringing your personality and your likes and the things that you like can really call in your ideal people, for sure. 

00:03:56 Gloria: First thing about copy is obviously we all need copy. And I think what's happening right now is that there's like four or five people obviously, who have done copy for a long time and everyone's kind of using the same templates. Because we just kind of follow the four or five experts. And we're getting to a point where the customers are very kind of, I don't say allergic, but they kind of just can see like that template, right? Like the problem, agitation, it seems like everyone's pages look the same. 

00:04:22 Gloria: And the reason why I wanted to have you on is because we're at kind of a turning point in the marketplace where customers are just not buying like they are before. And I'm sure if you're listening to this, you understand. And the same templates that you use, they're just not working anymore. So the universe is telling us, we have to try something new that you can still find your tribe, but you just cannot be using templates. And so personality about copy. It's not really about a formula. It's about injecting your personality. Can you tell me about why that is our solution in this market? 

00:04:51 Marisa: Oh, I love this so much. So I always say that people make purchasing decisions based on two things. One is that you're selling something that I want or I need. And that's why you're messaging how you talk about what you do is so important that you're clear and specific about what it is that you're selling that's clear on your pages. And I always say copy isn't just writing, it's also what we're doing. Like when you're communicating and speaking about what you sell, that's clear. 

00:05:19 Marisa: And then the second way that people make purchasing decisions is, are you the person that I want to buy this from? Do I get a sense of your voice, your vibe and your values? And this is where the personality piece really becomes that solution. Especially if you consider yourself someone who maybe is in a saturated market where other people are selling what you sell and even though it feels unique, you're like, okay, I still feel like there's another layer of uniqueness. This is where the personality piece can really cut through and cut past the templates and make people stop and pay attention.

00:05:56 Marisa: So in the issue, and you said this so beautifully, Gloria, is that we tend to see kind of the same in the same way that we're seeing the same templates. We tend to see like the same personalities online because we watch very often like, very like extroverted or like bombastic personality. So people feel like, well, that's not really me. So how do I put personality into my copy? And then they don't do it. Or they're like, well, I know how to be me in my real life. But how does that translate? I don't want to be unprofessional. I don't want to come across as not serious. 

00:06:31 Marisa: And so if you're out there and you're listening and you struggle with this, like it's not your fault. There's, we really haven't talked about this. I don't think enough to give yourself a barometer that you can always just go, okay, is this truly me? Does this work for me and my brand and be able to always come back to that? Because we don't really have, it's just kind of like people are either telling you like, Oh, you know, just go out there and be yourself in your copy. It's like, yeah, if I knew how to do that, I would have done it.

00:06:58 Gloria: Yeah, exactly. And I think we were, you know, this brings me back to something that's seemingly unrelated. But, you know, me and my husband, we just got married. And one of the things we talked about in our vows is like, when you are truly loved by somebody, they make you more yourself. And I think same thing with good copy, right? It's like your good copy, it makes it more yourself. And somehow through marketing and like doing this and doing that, we've been guided further and further away from ourselves. And I think what you're gonna tell us is how do we find a way back to ourselves because it's our true selves that's going to attract the right customer. Because if everyone's using the same templates and the same formula, then no one, we're just kind of just talking at each other, right? 

00:07:36 Marisa: Yeah. And even within those templates and those formulas, Gloria would say, if you're out there and you're listening and that has been helpful for you to get copy and things out into the world, I think that you can still use those, but really starting to comb through it to see where can you make sure that your personality is shining through and coming forward a bit more. 

00:07:58 Gloria: I love that. Let's talk about personality and copy. So we can start by mistakes that people make. So obviously, you've convinced us we need personality, and it's going to be a little bit more, I want to say less formulaic, right? Because obviously, we're not talking about another template. So what are some of the mistakes that people are making right now in the world of copy? 

00:08:17 Marisa: Yeah, some of the biggest things I see when it comes to missing personality is you will make mistakes. So this is the biggest one that I see is that people will mistake, you know, professional is that okay, we said we were recording here today, Gloria. So we both showed up and we're here. That's professional. But people will feel like in their copy, they need to be super buttoned up. They have to be, you know, really just coming across like in this professional way. They can't insert, they can't be funny. They can't write how they talk. And this is actually doing you a huge disservice.

00:08:57 Marisa:  Again, going back to that second purchasing decision. If people are looking, they're looking for that. So if they're seeing kind of just like, the stale kind of copy, you know, I would say disguised as professional, then they're going to kind of skip over it. So we want to just actually start if you're out there and you're listening, looking at think about an email, maybe that you have to your audience, a social post, even looking at your website, and just saying, if somebody was to, like, just take this off of my website, and try to use it on their own, would they be able to? Or would they not be able to? Like that's always the test. 

00:09:35 Marisa: Like if somebody could take part of your website and make it like their own, we haven't gone as specific or as much of your personality as we could. So first we just gotta strip away the professional a bit and remembering that when you have your own business, because sometimes what I hear people say is, that's the world maybe you came from, is maybe like a corporate background or something where, where you had to be that way, so it can be a little bit difficult to let go of, but knowing that actually, when you have your own business, there’s like freedom there to get to right and be like yourself. So just giving yourself a little bit of that permission to step out of the professional and end to that into the personality. 

00:10:18 Marisa:  So that’s like the three... those P’s like that stepping out of, like giving yourself permission, to step out of the professional, and lean into the personality a bit more and just being aware of it is really the first just knowing, looking at a piece of copy and saying, does this really sound like me or no? 

00:10:36 Gloria:  That's so good. That's really good. But Miss Marisa, just to recap, if I was a strip a part of your website, and I could apply it for multiple websites, it's not enough personality. Would you say that there's a connection between personality and level of specificity or specificity different than what you're talking about? 

00:10:51 Marisa:  Okay, yes and no. So when you're, you know, eat when you're at e-commerce or you're selling products. In my world, sometimes with service space, it can get a little cloudy and people aren't as specific, which will impact the personality. But if you're specific about the product that you're selling, it's like, okay, brava, I'm so excited because now we can dig into the personality piece. 

00:11:15 Marisa: But sometimes if people are lacking a little bit of that specificity in what they sell, it can be hard to get into the personality piece because we got to remember the first purchasing decision is if what you're selling is something that I want. So we first have to make sure that that's clear first, and then we can dive into the personality. So they are linked for sure. 

00:11:35 Gloria:  I love that. Okay, what's the second mistake?

00:11:38 Marisa:  Along with like that the professional is then it's like, okay, when I have that litmus test, then if I look at it, it's I think often people don't know how to change like what words then do I use? How do I even know? Like I was saying this before, Gloria. In my real life, I don't have to be myself, but how do I do it here? So inside of the Copy Confidence Society, which is our signature course in community, I created what's called the copy stars. It's taken from my former life as an actor. 

00:12:11 Marisa: So when I was an actor in order for my agent or my manager, my friends and I to be sent out for the right things, we would always like make sure that our headshots, the pieces that we were choosing were all in alignment. Were we the, you know, was referred to as the leading lady. Were we the femme fatale? Were we the quirky best friend? Were we the girl next door? So that we were actually being sent out for the things that we were right for. 

00:12:34 Marisa: And what I realized is that the same thing that makes you like a star on stage could make you a star in your business. So I've applied these same kinds of concepts to copy. So there's five copy stars to choose from, which can help you start to identify what your personnel in your copy actually is. 

00:12:51 Marisa:  So they are the hooker with a heart of gold, the relentless cheerleader, the nerd-tastic leader, the quirky misfit, and the red hot trailblazer. So within that, I'll use myself as an example. So I always say I am the hooker with a heart of gold. And so the hooker with a heart of gold is really fantastic at being able to be direct in their copy, being able anytime that they can be on the spot, like speaking about what they do, live video works really well. 

00:13:22 Marisa: So within this, we don't only just talk about the writing, but also types of copy that are really great for you. So for the hooker with a heart of gold, doing live video is really great. Any on the spot place where they can give their framework, they're like direct kind of humorous personality, but often the hooker with a heart of gold is really great at what they do, but they don't know how they got there. So they often need to slow down a bit and borrow from the nerd-tastic leader to be able to break things down more step-by-step.

00:13:51 Marisa: So within this system, something that I love to do is help people see themselves. You can be a combo, you can be a triplet. Sometimes people will be like, you know what I do have in my regular, I do have a lot of directness in my regular life. And I realized I'm not really bringing that into my copy. I'm definitely the... I see this a lot from people. I'm definitely the nerdtastic leader, let's say. But I do have a little bit of that hooker in me. And I don't really bring it out, I need to start bringing it out.

00:14:17 Marisa: So it gives you this barometer. So that if you feel like you're stuck in that sea of sameness, you can kind of come back to your copy star and be like, okay, does this really sound like me? I'm the relentless cheerleader and the quirky misfit. So does this really sound like me? So that's really helpful. And then within that, another thing that I think is really helpful that we talk about is once you kind of know your copy star and who you are is then really starting to create kind of what we call it your word closet. 

00:14:50 Marisa: So in the same sense, Gloria, if you were getting ready for like a photo shoot or something, it's likely that the photographer somebody would ask you to like go into your closet and say, you know, what kind of what kind of colors and stuff that you gravitate towards. So like Gloria, what are your favorite kinds of colors or things that you tend to wear?

00:15:05 Gloria:  So you know, I like, like, silver, like metal colors. I love leather, you know, it's a very kind of vibe.

00:15:13 Marisa: Totally, totally. I always say in mind, I'm like, is a lot of black, a lot of red. And even though like, I always joke, I'm not a cat person. But I have a lot of leopard print things. Like I have a lot of like snow leopard thing, like I have a snow leopard sweater, I have a leopard, like I have all these like leopard type things. So in the same sense, if you look in your closet, I always tell people, okay, start to think about the words and phrases you use a lot. 

00:15:36 Marisa: Look at text messages that you send friends. Look at text messages you send your partner. Look at the cadence, not just what you say, but do you send like one long paragraph? Do you send super short little texts, like how do you interact with people in that way? Like emails with loved ones. I also always say like, if you have kids or you have kids in your life, thinking about what they say to you, because they're likely repeating stuff that you've said to them back to you. 

00:16:04 Marisa: So to give you an example, when we were I hired an online curriculum specialist named Cassie, who went through like every nook and cranny of the society to make sure that it was doable for all the different learning styles. So, when she went through this and created her word closet, she realized her son always says to her, shut the front door, because she always says shut the front door. So now in her email, let's say her welcome sequence or something where people are first introduced to her, instead of just being like, hi, Gloria, I'm so glad you joined my email list. Instead it can say, shut the front door, Gloria. 

00:16:39 Marisa: And maybe in her word closet, she says like excited more than she says, you know? So it'd be like, shut the front door, Gloria. I'm so excited to have you here. So now there's just these little elements of you that sound more like you. And then in the same way, I always tell people, you have your word closet. So you have an idea of who you are, the barometer of who you are. Are you a little bit more direct? Are you more step-by-step focused? I always say my quirky misfits, they always, everything they do is like comes down. 

00:17:07 Marisa: I always say that my quirky misfits have some sort of sidekick. It's either like tarot, human design, astrology. So understanding who you are, because we don't want to lose that essence. And then who might you need to borrow from a little bit, just to like bring that full personality out. And then creating like that word closet. And the third part of this is what is called your accessories closet. So it's making a list of like, your favorite things that you don't have to know how you'll use it. 

00:17:37 Marisa: It could be like favorite cookie favorite tea, like right no...  I'm favorite... wine, whatever it is. So that when it comes time in your copy, you can update some cliched statements with things that sound more like you. So you might be talking about a product of yours and somebody might... you could say in an email, oh, you want to know why this product is so great? And you might say like, oh, hold my beer. I'll tell you why it's so great. So instead, I would say, hold my Earl Grey tea what half and half, cause here comes what makes this so great.

00:18:09 Marisa: So now you have like a list of words and phrases that sound like you, these like things of your favorite things that you can insert into places so that it just sounds a little bit more like you without having to totally throw the template or away, but it's going to feel refreshed. It's going to feel renewed. It's going to feel like you with just these like little small tweaks.

00:18:31 Gloria: Ooh, that is so good. So know your personality, have a word closet and then have accessories. So let's say if I make a product, right? How do I know when to inject which? Because obviously if I'm talking about the product, do I talk about the fact that I like chai tea or that I like electronic music? Like where does that go into my actual sales page? Or is this just for emails? 

00:18:50 Marisa: No, you can use this on your sales page. So like, let's say on the sales page, you were talking about recent results people have got or what people love about the product. Instead of having like what customers are saying section, which is like, okay, you could have, you know, hold my chai tea, here come the rave reviews, even that it's not that different than what customers are saying. But there's just like an added piece of personality that makes you want to keep reading. 

00:19:21 Marisa: And now I get a sense of glory. I'm like, Oh, I like chai tea too. And even if I don't, I'm just getting a sense of who you are, which I feel like the person that's selling to me, it's more human, more relatable. So on a sales page, you can use that. There's a lot of times where in like in social posts, if I'm, you know, instead of saying like, oh, I'm so excited to share this with you today, I don't really use the word excited. It's just that people say it. So maybe I say it. But for my word closet, I tend to say the word jazzed a lot. 

00:19:53 Marisa: So if I'm doing like an Instagram story or something, I'll be like, Oh my gosh, I'm so jazzed to share this with you. It's just this little and people start to associate with me saying it. So sometimes in my social posts, just making sure when I'm done writing, I look at my word closet, I'm like, have I used the things that really sound like me? An accessories closet is really where you can just take away some of those like cliched because a lot of times when you open up emails from people like marketing emails, they always say hi name, always. 

00:20:20 Marisa: So like how can we take that out? Like in the example of my online curriculum specialist of saying shut the front door, Gloria, I'm so glad you're here. The first email I ever sent to people when they joined my email list, my welcome sequence, the very first email, literally says, holy white chocolate covered Oreos at Christmas, Gloria, I'm so jazzed you're here. Because white chocolate covered Oreos are my favorite cookie in the world. You can only get them at Christmas. 

00:20:47 Marisa: I don't know how many people have hit reply to tell me that they too love white chocolate covered Oreos. And now I'm in a conversation with that person. And that person's more likely I can never have control over if people buy from me. But always say you can have control over the three Rs that people will remember you,  they'll rave about you and they'll refer you. So these little pieces of personality help get that conversation started so that people will interact with you and engage with you. 

00:21:12 Gloria: Yeah, I almost think about injecting personality kind of like monkey bars. Like you want some people, like something to hold on to as they make that journey. And so I really, wow, like so many ideas now, it's like I need to change my whole welcome sequence because I always talk about my dog and how I went to the ER, I broke my tooth because I love to bike, things like that. You know, you're giving me so many ideas. So that's so good.

00:21:37 Gloria: So what does that look like? Does that look like the people, you know, who are listening to this episode going home and opening a Google doc or an Excel spreadsheet and having those three columns? Or how do people get started with building this? 

00:21:49 Marisa: Yeah, so in this society, we have you create what's called you on one page. And it's what it is. And everybody in this society, they print it out or they have it. And it's you on one page. So if you're out there listening, you could open up a Google Doc and you're gonna make about, you have your copy star in a column, like who you are. So even if you don't have that language, it's asking yourself like, in my regular life, and this is something you can do, is ask like three or four people in your life to talk about what you bring to the table or the room. Like, what do they believe that your superpowers are? 

00:22:28 Marisa: I always tell people, don't go to the hardware store for milk. You really wanna ask people that know you and support you. But that can help you uncover somebody saying, hey, you're like super, you know, direct or you're like, this is where people come back and go, oh, I do have a little bit of the hooker with a heart of gold in me. I'm not using it. Or people will say, you're so nurturing. You're like the best listener. Okay, oh, I am the relentless cheerleader. So you want to you want a little square that kind of has a couple of words that define you. 

00:22:58 Marisa: Then you want to have that column. That's your word closet, those most use words and phrases. You want a list of your accessories closet. I always say favorite drink is a great one to have, favorite cookie. If you have a pet, something like that. Just a list so that you can start to sell out some of your favorite TV shows. Some of those. And even like I had a part on a sales page. Like I said on there, hey, doing this copy work is going to be more fun than when my mom tried to rush the Rolling Stones concert in 1968. I just gave this little tidbit. 

00:23:34 Marisa: And I remember somebody reached out to me being like, oh my gosh, my mom's a huge rolling stone span. How many times did your mom raise? So now the conference, this is these little places in the copy that we can just up level the personality and add a little bit of you in there. 

00:23:48 Gloria: Ooh, I love that so, so, so much. Okay. You've given us so much to talk about, to think about, and these are easy things. You're not asking us to reinvent the wheel. It's just bring what we always do and say into our coffee. So it's not like we have to do a whole audit. It's just injecting these little things. What are some other easy things that we can do just to increase those conversions, whether it's sales, whether it's a DMs, whether it's opens?

00:24:11 Marisa: If you're in a process of maybe you're, and we're always kind of selling, right? But if you're in a process where maybe you have a sale or something that's going on and you're like, really honing in on, you know, your emails, your social posts, it's all there is really making sure that you're kind of hitting those different buyer personas. So, my pal Sage Polaris, she's like the queen of this. She has what's called the color-coded copy system. So she talks about that, you know, different buyers are different colors and that really directs how they buy or how they purchase. So making sure that you're kind of hitting some different of the buyer persona. 

00:24:44 Marisa: So when I'm selling something, I always want to make sure that some of my social posts or some of my emails are super short and to the point because those quick action takers, that's all they need. They don't need too much of it. So if they just have that so even within my launches, when I'm selling, I always have a couple of emails that are super short so that those people can go take that action. Then making sure that, you know, I always try to have an FAQ email or a social post that's like some of the top questions that I'm getting. Question answer, question answer for that buyer persona that really needs to dig in and make sure that this is right for them.

00:25:23 Gloria: So looking to see, do you have some varied in terms of links, some shorter posts that feel a little bit quicker and easier for people to kind of get them and take action with? Do you have something that really spells out for some people like question, answer, question, answer? 

00:25:37 Marisa: So just looking at the kind of links and types of posts that you have can really be helpful. So we have a thing in the society called the six post prompts, where it's like six different types of posts that you can kind of cycle through. So another one on there that's really helpful, I call it the lay down the law post. So a lot of times people, I always say like, you wanna have things that you're celebrating in your niche or what you sell and the things that maybe you wanna call BS on.

00:26:06 Marisa: And I think we all have this in the space that we're in, whether we sell services or products or something, there's a reason that you created or made the thing that you made. And so in the lay down the law post, it's an opportunity to really hit home why your thing is so special, why it should be the choice. This is where you can kind of call out BS on the other things that you're seeing and why your product could help elevate or help that person or be a better choice. So the lay down the law post is one that people really love and get a lot of engagement from. 

00:26:42 Marisa: So like having some different links, making sure that if you're selling something that you have a great post or email that's like FAQ, straight question and answer. Are you really honing in on the things that you want to celebrate in your space? And also are you calling out the things that you know, you want to call BS on as well?

00:27:00 Gloria: Ooh, I love that. I honestly think we are in the era of like, calling out BS and being contrarian because for so long, we've just kind of accepted these truths. And I think customers are getting tired and the people who actually are not afraid to take a stand and say something maybe a little controversial, maybe a little polarizing, they are the ones getting all the views. Because they're actually standing for something. 

00:27:20 Gloria: And so when we think about marketing, right? Like finding our tribes, if you will, how are you going to signal to people what tribe you're in unless you're gonna take a stand? So I love what you said about that. That's so gold. Oh, you've given us so much to think about. I love what you said about having a pattern interrupt because what we don't want is to have the same types of emails, same types of posts. 

00:27:40 Gloria: People want to have that little jolt. Maybe it's just one carousel post with plain text. If you always do B-roll, maybe it's a shorter email. If you always do long emails, I'm actually going to implement that right now. So that's so good. 

00:27:53 Marisa: Yeah. Within my launch, I will have an email that I think the subject line says something like, you know, this email has 30 words and the preview text says, count it or something. And then you open it up and that's all it is. It's like, are you, you know, whatever it is, are you, are you still interested in joining the Coffee Confidence Society? If so, you know, go here or something like that. 

00:28:10 Gloria: Oh my God. So it's so brilliant. I might. I might steal that. That's so good. 

00:28:15 Marisa: Yeah. A lot of it's a take on what people call like the nine word email, but I make mine a little bit longer because I put it in a part in the launch where I want to connect them to a couple like case studies. So I say like, are you still interested in joining the Copy Confidence Society? You know, if so, check this out and the this is hyperlinked to a case study. And then I put and this and maybe this. So all three this is our hyperlinked to a testimonial or something that people say. And I say, after you check these out. I'm sure you're going to be, you know, that is hyperlink. Let me into the copy confidence society stat, which leads to the sales page. So it's a way for me to kind of add in some social proof too, as well, without making it super long. 




00:28:56 Gloria: Brilliant. That's brilliant. I love a hyperlink. I teach that too, in my pitching to journalists. I love a hyperlink. So, I mean, oh my God, this is why I call you the copy queen. You have so much to say. And you can tell that when you were talking about this, you're in your natural elements, like you just absolutely love doing this.




00:29:10 Gloria: I could talk to you for hours, I guess, to wrap it up here. The one question I want to ask is, what is something that all the coaches have been saying for a long time that's just understood as like, this was, you know, a copy rule that you're just like, this shit does not work anymore. Stop doing it. What are those things? 




00:29:28 Marisa: Oh my gosh. A copy rule that doesn't work. The biggest thing that I find for people, this is me personally is people will try to like write off, well, there's two things. The first thing is that people will try to just go straight and they're like, oh, if this copy is so great, you could sell to somebody minute one. And I am actually like, no, I wanna build. To me, I really, so something that we talk about in the society, the way that we talk about websites is we talk about it being called, I call it the meet cute method, which is in a romantic comedy. When the characters first meet, that's their meet cute.






00:30:07 Marisa: And your hope is that we'll see them again in a romantic way at the end of the movie. So I like to set up people's website is like the meet cute method to really guide people to take these micro next steps with you along the way, which to me leads to better customers, better relationships. So I'm having people from the website take like a micro next step off of the okay, they join your email list. Okay, how can we help them take those micro steps before bombarding them into selling. 




00:30:07 Marisa: And I have found that that has worked so well for me and for my people to not only create conversions, but to create repeat customers, people who come back, people who feel invested. So I really help people focus on the micro next steps before the very first thing they see is like a giant buy now button like in their face. Now it depends on different campaigns and such, but that's a big one. That's a big one for me. 

00:31:03 Gloria: Yeah, I think the whole one click at the cart is over because we just have so much choice and people are just not willing to part with their money as much because they've seen all the gimmicks, right? So it doesn't work anymore. Even bonus is an urgency. Is there anything else that people are using this? Oh yeah, this is definitely gonna convert. And you're like, really not working anymore. What is wrong with the world? 

00:31:21 Marisa: Well, it's not that it's not working anymore. It's just when people are trying to just put their copy through AI and then post it. And I'm like, oh my God, this was done by a robot. And I'm like... In this society, I'm very much helping... We talk about AI in terms of like cutting research time in half, synthesizing. If you have words of your ideal client, if you have things that people are saying, okay, AI can help you like break that down and boom. But I am a firm believer that writing and your copy, it's still... Yes, to me, at the end of the day, writing is still a creative process and people can tell the difference. 

00:31:58 Marisa: So I want to have people use AI to... So I want to have people use AI to synthesize, break things down. But this is where things like your word class at that. So even if you do run something through AI, now you can go through and carve it to make sure it truly sounds like you. Like I'm just seeing so much AI like cut and paste. And I read something and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I know that person put it through AI. I just know that they did. 

00:32:23 Marisa: And right now, if we're talking about people are, you know, not willing to part with their money is much as they used to, then all of those things that make you you that make you a human, that relatability, that's going to drive purchases and conversions. So being able to use elements of you, telling stories about you about that is really going to make you stand out. So I'm just not teaching people how to use AI to write your copy. 

00:32:54 Gloria: Yeah. And you're exactly right. Because if everyone's using AI to write copy, then again, we just getting further and further away from ourselves. I love this. This work is honestly, I feel like being an entrepreneur, it's such a sacred work because what we're doing is we're just trying to get people to be more of themselves, right? When like you do it in your way, I do it in my way. So I'm so happy that you're on this journey together with me and empowering, you know, people to be more of themselves and confidently take up space. How can people find you and get to know more about you, my Leo sister?

00:33:22 Marisa: Yeah, a great place is, you know, I really actually love speaking of talking about social, I really love my Instagram and I have so much fun over there. So I always say DM me on Instagram, it will be me that responds to you if there was something that stood out from, you know, if you're out there listening from the interview today, if you have another question like, okay, the word closet made sense to me, but do you have another example of accessories? I'm happy you will hear from me, I will respond back to you and I'm @mtoni - T-O-N-I

00:33:50 Gloria: And she's in New York, y'all. So I get to see her all the time. So come over and say hi. You know, I don't usually do this, but I feel like because we're on the topic of personality, we have to do a little rapid fire. 

00:34:01 Marisa: Okay, go. I'm taking a sip of my tea. Give it to me.

00:34:04 Gloria:  Okay, are you beach or mountain person? 

00:34:06 Marisa: Beach. 

00:34:06 Gloria: Okay, ice cream or sorbet?

00:34:09 Marisa: Ice cream. 

00:34:10 Gloria: Pasta or pizza? 

00:34:11 Marisa: Oh, that's hard. I'm Italian. You can't make me choose. Both. But when I grew up, there was both on the table. But I can't choose. I can't. Between pizza or pasta. 

00:34:23 Gloria: Morning person or a late night person?

00:34:25 Marisa: This is such a great question. I feel like I'm a lark. Like I have, I'm morning and then in the afternoon, I come back alive at night. I actually love my mornings. They're sacred. Like I go on my walks, but I am like, I'll stay up late. Like I was watching that part two of the Robert Durst, the Jinx. And last night I was like, it's 12:30. I got to go to bed. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm both. I can be both.

00:34:47 Gloria: Are you someone that arrives at the airport four hours earlier or last call?

00:34:50 Marisa:  Oh, early. I'm too, my anxiety, I'm Italian. Like my anxiety is too high for that. I'd rather get there early, get a glass of wine, sit down, do work. You know, I actually always host if I'm waiting in an airport lounge, I'll do like an ask me anything while I'm sitting and waiting and respond to questions. Yeah, I'm there early for sure. 

00:35:09 Gloria: Okay. When you're traveling, are you like, do you just bring a tiny duffel bag that can fit under your seat or you're like paying extra for luggage?

00: 35:15 Marisa: I don't pay extra for luggage because I have all the stuff that makes it so that I can check it for free. But I check a bag. I have a lot of skincare products. As you know, Gloria, it's like the first thing I asked you was like, tell me about your skincare. Half my suitcase, I'm not kidding you. The Bible isn't even close. It's skincare. It's my toiletry bag. That's why I couldn't ever just carry on. It's my toiletry. My toiletry bag is like its own little thing. 

00:35:37 Gloria: A text message or phone call? 

00:35:39 Marisa:  Phone call. I think we need more of it. And I think you just, I think I need more phone calls than I need text messages. 

00:35:46 Gloria: All right, well, I mean, I could keep going on and on, but this was so awesome. Thank you for reminding us to just embrace our personality because this is what we need in this world of templates and everyone doing the same thing. And we just need to peel back the layers and find ourselves again. I mean, really it's a metaphor for life. So thank you so much. Please follow her @mtoni, check out her copy, Confidence Society. It's awesome. And thank you so much for being on the show. 

00:36:08 Marisa: Thanks, Gloria. Thank you for having me. This was great.

00:36:12 Gloria: Hey, small business hero, did you know that you can get featured for free on outlets like Forbes, the New York Times, Marie Claire, PopSugar, and so many more, even if you're not yet launched or if you don't have any connections? That's right. That's why I invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought after industry expert. Now, if you want to land your first press feature, get on a podcast, secure a VIP speaking gig or just reach out to that very intimidating editor, this class will show you exactly how to do it. Register now at GloriaChouPR.com/Masterclass. That's Gloria Chou, C-H-O-U-P-R.com/Masterclass. So you can get featured in 30 days without spending a penny on ads or agencies. Best of all, this is completely free. So get in there and let's get you featured.

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