Episode 08: Why MORE Isn’t Always Better and How to Actually Build a Loyal Following with Top Podcaster Espree Devora
Do you ever feel like you're drowning in a sea of more? There is a pressure to have more followers, create more content, generate more revenue, and MORE. Isn't it so exhausting?
If you can relate, this episode is for you.
I am interviewing Espree Devora because she knows all about what it’s like to have it all and be sucked into the culture of “more”. She is talking to us about that as well as why more isn’t always better and how to build a loyal community.
"The girl who gets it done", a prolific podcaster since 2013, Espree Devora is not just a founding member of the Audio collective, the hybrid live-audio creator community, she’s also a force in the Los Angeles tech scene and champion of women in tech globally.
We cover the difference between brand building and community building, why it’s crucial to understand your market, how journalism differs from podcasting, the difference between selling and serving, and so much more.
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
The difference between brand building and community building
The problem with the words “get” and “convince”
Why it’s crucial to understand your market
Questions you should ask yourself when deciding how to make an impact
How journalism differs from podcasting
The difference between serving and selling
How to make sure you avoid entitlement
This episode offers some incredible mindset shifts that I hope you benefit from. I felt so inspired and motivated after this conversation with Espree, so I hope you feel the same way after listening.
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you check out the episode that I did on Espree’s podcast and connect with her over on all of her social channels which are linked below.
If you want to learn simple secrets to turn your bootstrapped business into a nationally known brand in 30 days, watch the PR Masterclass at www.gloriachoupr.com/masterclass. It will teach you the EXACT methods thousands of bootstrapped small businesses use to get featured for FREE!
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Espree on LinkedIn
Join the Small Biz PR Pros FB group
Additional Resources:
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Transcript
Speaker1: [00:00:01] Do you ever feel like you're drowning in a sea of more, more revenue, more followers, more likes, more videos and isn't it so exhausting sometimes if you ever felt this way? My friend, then this episode was made for you. I interviewed someone who had it all in the traditional sense, and you're not going to want to miss what she has to say about the culture of more. And instead, what she most feels aligns with herself as she builds her business. Hey, friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award-winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message, because let's be honest, we simply cannot make the impact. We're here to make by hiding behind the scenes. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome to the Small Business PR podcast. I am so excited for today, it's really a full-circle moment here because I have a guest who I was on her podcast more than a year ago and to be able to have the honor of having her back. It's just making me so happy today. We have the one and only Espree Devora. She is a founder of podcast producer and a host championing women in tech globally while also building a community in the L.A. tech ecosystem. Right? So she has founded not one, but two podcasts. She is a community builder. She is so unapologetically about being value first, and I'm so excited to talk a little bit more about that and building community and all things podcast. So without further ado, I'm so excited to have today's guest, Espree, to were on the show. Welcome Espree.
Speaker2: [00:01:57] Oh, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be doing this with you. You're such a champion of women all the time, making sure that we're always acknowledged and celebrated, and I just really appreciate that about you and thank you for having me on.
Speaker1: [00:02:10] Full circle moment. It's it's so it's such an honor because you are someone that is so unapologetic about your service first mentality and you're honestly so humble. You've been the face of Clubhouse. You have a leading podcast. I want to get into more about what it means to truly be a mission and value driven entrepreneur and founder and journalist. But first, I want to talk a little bit more about building communities. So can you talk to me the difference between kind of building community versus brand building and self-promotion because it kind of gets all jumbled up there?
Speaker2: [00:02:42] I think it's funny. I was thinking about this this morning that I was interviewing someone and they were talking about something called the triple win, where there's a win for you, a win for the people, a win for the brands that you're promoting. And that's very true. But I think people don't understand what being valuable is in the first place, like what that even looks like to be valuable. So. What I'd like you to think about is when you're thinking about sharing your brand with someone instead of saying, Hey, check out my company, CNNMoney.com instead speak from a place of how it actually feels. Really, listen to someone. So if my if my product is about stickers, right? And instead of saying, Oh, you should, you should, you should go to my site, I sell stickers like no instead. Hey, how are you? Oh, you're founder. Oh, how cool. What company are you building? Awesome. Oh, I just and start to be a story. Sure. I just had this amazing client with my company. Create this amazing sticker collection and did it. And then from the stickers, they were able to build up all these fans. So instead of telling someone to like convincing them to use your company to make stickers, think about what stories can you share. So you're really supporting that person you're talking to in their journey. You're getting to know them more, and then you're simply sharing stories, and then they're really connecting with those stories in a way that could serve them.
Speaker1: [00:04:12] So you're saying we need more human in this world than the world to convince him,
Speaker2: [00:04:17] But I think people forget or don't even know in the first place how to, like, be human and like come from a place of value, which is interesting to me. It's like, we're not we're not bad people. It's just if we never learned what that truly means. If we never saw the tactical of what that looks like, we think. Brand building and community building or whatever words we use is telling everyone on Twitter to go check out my potato chips, you know, it's like, like I say, I was telling you this before we started recording the words get and convince really bother me and I hear them often. How do we get people to do this? How do we convince people to do this? Well, if you're trying to get somebody to do something or convince somebody to do something in the first place, then it means you're not in a relationship. You're not in alignment because you're trying to make somebody do something that isn't within their flow state. So instead, ask yourself, how can I really like be an asset in this person's life? How can I make their life a little bit easier? How can I really see them? How can I elevate them? How can I celebrate them?
Speaker1: [00:05:26] Wow, I love that, and I think in the age of internet marketing and clubhouse and influencer and the journalist blogger person, we need more of exactly what you said. So I want to go back to like because obviously we all know that if we're in business, we want to make revenue right. It's not we're not doing this for charity. So how do you reconcile the difference between building a community and, you know, you still want to sell? Like, for example, I have a community people know about my offers. It's not free. Right, so. So how do you walk the line between building a community that will help your business versus just self promoting and selling?
Speaker2: [00:06:00] Well, I think the first thing is really understanding who your market is. So first of all, are you building helpful resources and content based on a market who can afford to buy from you and has the pains that you're addressing? Because if you're selling something, if let's say you've heard the stories about these content creators who have like zillions of followers and then they try to sell a T-shirt and not even one T-shirt sells, it's because they weren't in a right match with buyers. They didn't have that kind of relationship. They didn't understand why the buyer who who their fan base was and that they weren't indeed buyers. So the very first thing is to kind of do like a brand audit is who I marketing to actually my buyers. And if they're not my buyers, why am I? Why am I marketing to them? Why am I putting so much energy? Is there some other reason that makes sense in your business that these this audience like has earned the investment of your energy? Or are you just off base and just kind of marketing to market into the ether? And so do that, that brand audit first, right? And then after you do the brand audit, the way to start thinking about building community is where do you want to house the community and don't fall for all the blogs like, Oh, I got to have a Facebook group or got to have the slack right now and then newest rages discord, everybody's got to have a discord. The things that people don't tell you is when you create the discord, the slack, the Facebook group, the circle, the mighty networks and all the other ones that exist is then you have to moderate them and then people lose interest and forget, I'm a part of this amazing one.
Speaker2: [00:07:29] I'm not going to say, Well, I'll shout it out, but I'm going to be really transparent about it. I don't think you'll mind it's trends. Avc Have you heard of this one? It's a it's a trend it's going to have. It's a trend spotting group in circle. This group is so high value, like so high value. The founder is absolutely incredible. I pay, so I pay. It's high value founders. Incredible. Last time I've been in this group is, I don't know, seven months ago. Like, I don't go into the group. I'm busy. I have a lot going on. So even though it has all those elements, I have nothing but good things to say. I have not actively logged into the thing like, you know, so that's the kind of thing that you're up against. You could build all this value, but you can't combat that. I have a busy schedule and it's not at my focal attention at this moment and in this particular case hasn't been there for I think it's over seven months or something, right? And so don't invest all of your time being like, Oh, I'll put this this digital asset together and then everybody will come and everybody will be in it for years. Like, be reasonable, be like realistic. Like. Our markets are like, what do we really like need, what will we really use? There's other this amazing, amazing community, and I think they get a lot closer. It's called Writers Hour. It's free. They have writers all over the world writing at the same time at eight a.m.
Speaker2: [00:08:52] in multiple time zones, right? And so you show up, you sign up, writers hour. I highly recommend it. Totally free. In multiple time zones, everyone shows up at eight a.m.. The thing that that's one step better is because everybody's doing something in collective unison with with the same exact goal writing right? And so the more you could think about your market and what they need, I think in the writers community also, it's a very isolating thing to be a writer. So now they could write in community, and that's probably something they really appreciate. So you really want to get to the heart and lifestyle of your target market and how could you serve them? And that's not necessarily like a Zoom group. It's not necessarily a Zoom group like writer's hour, and it's not necessarily a circle group like trends. It's whatever group you think is best, it's how you want to cultivate your community and so your architecting the reality of of your community, and that could be through a newsletter. It could be by you doing like in-person meetups. It could be by like, I mean, there's a million. It could be a clubhouse room. There's like a million ways to cultivate community. Don't worry about the tech, put all your energy and focus and like, who do I want to serve and how can I best serve them? Actually, not? How do I want to best serve them? How do they want to best be served? What can I do for them? And sometimes sometimes you could give it your absolute best shot and still won't. That person still won't log in, you
Speaker1: [00:10:21] Know what I mean? And they still they still speak highly of you. What you said is so powerful because I think a lot of people are so focused on brand building the revenue, the numbers, the buyers, the funnels. And there's actually people on clubhouse doing live funnels like sales funnels using Clubhouse. And I always yes, and I was actually so it's such a fresh, you know, breath of fresh air that you actually use your platform when you are the former face of Clubhouse. Literally, your face was on it and you opened up the floor to help one person for a dedicated amount of time when you could have probably just churn through a lot of people to get them into whatever call to action. But you didn't do that. And even to this day, you are so allergic to that. You're so like, you know, humble about you can you're allergic to to internet teaching and, you know, and how it blurs the line between journalism and that the world is going in such a direction. And you're so adamantly against that. And I just I think that says so much about you and you know, you're in the top one percent of podcasters you could interview and get anyone you want, but you're still about serving the underdog. So can you talk to me from just a perspective like what? What made you decide you didn't want to use your platform? You're following your access to VIP people to grow your business in the way that everyone else is?
Speaker2: [00:11:36] Yeah, I didn't really like decide it's just who I am like. If anything, I have to constantly decide not to, rather than decide either way, because everybody keeps telling me to, Oh, you need to have a course, oh, you need to have a course. It's like, I get it all the time and I have to decide, like, no, that's not right for me, or if I do create something like I did put together for a little while, like, so OK. A huge problem within the podcasting space is gaining listeners. And so I really was mindful of like, OK, how do I empower everyone to gain a lot of listeners as well? I was like, OK, there's all this stuff. I'm not going to post it anywhere. It's just all this stuff in my own private computer, and I'm not going to actively share it. So I'm like, Well, what if I shared it in community in a paid membership and shared it in in that way? And then people could ask me all the questions because the fact is, I'm not going to get on a personal call with, I don't have the time to do that. So if I created this accountability group to all grow their listenership together, maybe that would be something that's the closest kind of like possibility.
Speaker2: [00:12:40] But the difference between that and of course, to me is I'm not like trying to like do a cash grab like I'm trying to like. The question I'm asking myself is how can I create something like tangible? Like, I really respect software, Dropbox, Evernote, Trello, like Basecamp software. It's like a digitally tangible thing that is like making some a business person's life significantly better by organizing their files, file, share, whatever it is. And so the thing that I keep asking myself is what digitally, digitally tangible thing? It's not like an abstract. It's not a cash grab. What digitally tangible thing or what digitally tangible ecosystem like Writers Hour can I facilitate? Can I create that would truly like they would. Each person would get actual like achievement, like they'd go from three hundred listeners to like a thousand listeners. What? It is, and I'm still like, what's the word like marinating on that I haven't decided yet because I'm really allergic to corpses, so I just adamantly don't want to create a course. I don't want to create anything like a course like. And so, yeah, I'm still marinating it. But these are the questions that I'm asking myself.
Speaker1: [00:13:54] And I think for you, it's like it all starts with curiosity. You have such a following. You don't post that much on Instagram, and I don't think your business has suffered because you're not overly like self-promotional and you're still able to make the impact that you do without being in all the places. So that just goes to show that you don't have to be crazy about the funnels and the numbers to be able to build the most amazing community which you have. And going back to what you said about courses, I am as well allergic to courses. And when people call my PR starter pack, of course, I'm like, it is not a course, it is not a videos that you can get anywhere. I do that for free in my Facebook group, right? So I think it's all about what is the problem, what where is the gap? How can you give them something proprietary? That's a value that's not just like they can google it themselves. So I totally agree with you with what's happening in the course community. Yeah, I'm 100 percent like
Speaker2: [00:14:43] Sometimes I ask myself, like because I know so much stuff that and I assume everybody knows it. And as I've gone through my career, I noticed that people don't know what I'm like. How do I know these different things that I know because I'm not doing anything special? I'm like, Oh, it's that I've been in my industry for so long. My peers are sharing stuff with me, and I'm taking it for granted that it's like just everybody knows this stuff, not recognizing that I'm inside private conversations, even if they're like 50 people. It's like still 50 of the top tech leaders in the world, you know? And and then I'm hearing, Oh, we use this, this and that for NFTs or whatever it may be. And now I have this knowledge that I think is it's 50 people. It's a public like, you know, I don't know any. And then I hear these other people like, Whoa, I didn't know about that. I'm like, really? And so it's those types of things I'm like, Well, I don't want to hoard this. I don't want to hoard my access. How do I make my access available to everyone? And I'm still marinating on that. I'm not sure yet, but that's that's my M.O. is like, how do I take these things that I'm so lucky to be exposed to and share it with, with as many people as possible in a very real way? That's not like information porn.
Speaker1: [00:15:59] Yeah, I love it. No information porn and definitely do not call you an internet teacher. Definitely not. Yeah, I mean, nowadays with journalism and podcasting and influencer lines are so blurred that I think it's so important that we still have people like you who who, you know, you're a trained writer. You've done interviews around the world with women in tech, so you are very committed to the journalistic mission. So where do you think it's kind of going because I really see podcasting evolving? It started off, as you know, a new credible news source, and now it's becoming a sales machine. So where do you where do we what do you have to say about that? And kind of how can you still sell on podcast, but do it right? Yeah.
Speaker2: [00:16:38] So I'm a I'm a trained journalist, so I. So I know that I'm not a journalist, meaning I'm a trained journalist. So as a podcaster, I feel like I'm a storyteller. I'm sharing people's stories. That is not journalism. In my opinion. Journalism, unfortunately, I believe, barely exists anymore. I think it's difficult to have proper journalism if advertising is behind it. And so it's really influenced by advertising. It's if you're not doing fact checking like to do proper journalism, you're fact checking, it's unbiased. You're getting to the heart of the facts of the matter. I am not. I'm not I'm sharing a woman's story on the Women in Tech podcast, she's telling her story and I'm facilitating the conversation for her to share her story. I don't believe that's journalism. I believe that's content creation and story sharing where how to sell like you know, and how to not be gross, at least in the category of being a podcaster. So I'm not speaking about like news sites and blogs. That's a whole nother conversation. But on podcasting specifically is the stuff that you're sharing in your podcast. Do you genuinely authentically believe in these products and would you use them yourself? Do you use them yourself and and will your audience properly find value in them? If I remember there was one nicotine company that reached out to me like a million times, and I it was a lot of money and I just didn't do it like that. I don't smoke. I like I. It is not my it wasn't in alignment with who I am, you know? So even though if I wanted a cash grab, that would have been it, you know? And so think about that.
Speaker2: [00:18:19] The products that you're representing, like, are definitely in alignment with who you are and you authentically like, like and love and that you think your audience will really benefit and then there's nothing wrong with it. I think the part that there's something wrong with is actually as women, how we communicate that sometimes in in will will like, kind of speak apologetically when I have this thing for sale, you know, like, I think it's important that when we're really proud of our work, that we communicate it with confidence and share it if we're having self-doubt, is it because we have our own self limiting beliefs? Or is it because we don't believe in the product? Either way, we need to work on those things. And so it's not so much about incorporating like, how great is I have the Women in Tech podcast. It empowers the women in tech around the world. How great is it that Brand X wants to empower and elevate women in tech around the world, and they are doing that through being a partner or a sponsor of my podcast? And so that is like a really powerful way to look at it. If instead you're like, How do I get branded? How do I get to take their money? It's I get word again, like, this isn't about getting someone's money. This is about building a sustainable operation. So the women in tech around the world can be elevated, you know, so so when you're thinking about your companies, think about the sustainability piece and the mission, the mission, the foundation that it's on.
Speaker1: [00:19:47] Yeah, 100 percent. And I will say, like, there are a lot of people out there doing like copycatting duplications to get rich quick, but it's not going to last right. Your brand is just not going to last. So you've definitely given us some gems from the mindset point of view of how it's important to build community and not just brand and how it's OK to sell, but it has to come from a place of service. You've done a lot of work on yourself in the years. You're very transparent on Instagram, you share the the winds, but then also the heavier stuff, right? So you've done a lot of work. Do you have anything to say about like entrepreneurs who are just starting off and they're wrestling with doing something that feels good to them and then doing something that they know will get them more revenue quickly?
Speaker2: [00:20:27] Yeah, I think well, the first thing I'd like to say is like both Gloria and I are no better than you like. Take out that feeling that that like because someone's on a stage, they're better or no more like your intuition is your oracle. So like, really start by believing in in yourself. It's so important. I think a lot of people get lost in like. Like who? Someone else is. And then and then and then they just, I don't know, you know, it's just it's like, trust your your own guy. Do the research let go of what doesn't resonate with you and like, hold on to what does when you're building your company and you do that cash grab? At the end of the day, if you go the option, the pathway because you ask like, what about like a cash grab company or like a really heartfelt brand building that might be builds a little slower? I interview this woman in tech and she said the coolest thing like it was a couple of weeks ago, she was from FreshBooks, and she said, I don't like the question like, what's your five year plan like? Where do you see yourself in five years? She said, I prefer to say, what stories do I want to have told? So if it's five years from now, what stories do I want to have told? The reason why I say that is this life is all about purpose.
Speaker2: [00:21:48] It feels like it's not. It feels like it's about followers and fans and engagement and likes and all this stuff. And unfortunately, these tech apps aren't doing anything to cater to our mental health. So it's up to us to remember this is our life. We don't know what happens after we only know how we feel during. So if you feel vibrant in your in your body, like because you're motivated by money and you're going after that first and you're not hurting anybody and you know, go go that quick cash path, whatever it is, just know that holistically. Is it right for you? Are you serving the world in a great way? Are you in it? Are you in alignment with everything you're doing? If you're building your brand slower, that path is OK, too. But again, it's like, Are you serving a purpose that's larger than you? Are you? You know, because everybody's motivated by different things. But the anchor of why we're here like, don't get if you're hurting people along the way, if you're taking advantage of people, if you're scamming people just to get that quick buck like. Your soul's got to live with that. You know, and so think about this whole big thing is one big journey with a ton of stories and there's no final destination ever.
Speaker2: [00:23:02] Not even like when we leave this plane because it's kind of like, it's like the journey is like just a universal journey. And so are you spending your time every day in a way that feels like adventurous, that feels fulfilling, that feels vibrant? Are you spending? Are you surrounded by people you want to be surrounded by? Are you learning? Are you being able to apply your curiosity and learning the things you want to learn? Like, I'm a forever student, I constantly have a backpack on. I'm always studying. You would never think that like, I've been building a company for several years, you would think I'm a college student or something the way I'm always like writing notes and people. I get this question a lot. A lot. It's actually almost annoying. People say, Man, why are you always so busy? And I'm like, Because I'm curious, because I'm driven and all my quote unquote free time is spent creating and learning like. It's like life is exciting. And so what adventures do you want to have? What stories do you want to tell? So it's not so much about? If I want to make money really fast or if I want to take a slower path, it's more about like the the ethos behind it and either one is is fine. Yeah, some people are super motivated by money
Speaker1: [00:24:16] And the thing too is you've interviewed like, you know, over thousands of people spoken at all the big stages. You meet all the kind of quote unquote A-listers, but you're not impressed by titles. And he actually said, say in your email signature, like, I don't care about titles, I don't really care about my title either. So out of all the entrepreneurs you met who have the fanciest titles, right, and the ones that may be like do have a title, but they're building community. Like, do you see a difference between people who are like genuinely in it for service versus not? And like, how does how does that appear in all throughout their life? Like, do they? Yeah, happier people. Are they?
Speaker2: [00:24:53] Yeah, I think we have energetic communication like I call it, silent communication. So even if you're not saying anything, even if you're showing up in one kind of way, people sense it, they, you know, just via vibration. And I think when when you're living authentically and caring about others and in from a place of service, no matter again, if your fast paced with the money or slower pace, it's just if you're always coming from a place of service. People pick up on that silently that whether it's authentic or not. One of my close friends I was was because unfortunately, he's not here anymore was the CEO of a huge company, and he has so many accolades. It's crazy how many accolades he has. And one of the things all of us talk about all of this friends talk about how he never shared his accolades. You would never know, like like you would never know. And this guy was like the top of the top, like had the Ivy League college degree and built tremendously wealthy companies. And you know, all on is that it was crazy and just, nope, never shared an accolade. Always was like, How are you? How are you? Who are you? How are you? How are you doing? You just knew and you connected with him that it was really authentic, that that he didn't care about anyone's status. He just cared about knowing, you people know they pick up. You may think you could get away with stuff, but I think most people can't get away with all they think they can.
Speaker1: [00:26:18] And I think that brings me to the point which, you know, I'm in, quote unquote PR and people are like, Well, that's all ego. It's just about like logos and bragging rights. And it's like, for me, it's not about that. It's about making sure the underdog feels so confident that they're not afraid to go bigger with their message. Yeah, that is why I'm doing what I'm doing. Yes, it's nice to have logos, but the process of getting your message clear of pressing that send button that is really to me why I do what I do. So I think sometimes you can see that like, you know, they're in odds with each other, or it's like building a business and being known, getting yourself out there. You've got to make offers to people. But it's okay to have both. I it's OK.
Speaker2: [00:26:58] I think you're reminding me my mom says this thing, and I feel like that's what you do, but people may not perceive it that way. My mom says half of the world is looking for the other half of the world. They just don't know how to find them. And I feel like you are everyone's bridge half of the world is searching for for your clients and your clients are searching for the other half of the world, but you make it possible for them to find one another. So it's not about promotion your bridge building.
Speaker1: [00:27:25] Yeah, 100 percent and in terms of the pitch, right? Every person knows and you get pitches all day because you have a top ring podcast, you know that people want to be on your podcast so they can talk about themselves. But and you can tell very quickly which pitches you like and which pitches you don't. So I have obviously the CPR method, which is a value driven way, and that's how I actually got onto your podcast. So can you talk to me a little bit about all the years you've received pitches from fancy PR companies and this person, the CEO? And what are the pitches that stick out the most like energetically or oh,
Speaker2: [00:27:56] This is easy. So I get. Like you said, I'm very grateful I get an abundant amount of pitches out of the abundant amount of pitches. There are only two in the years like what is it, seven years now that I've been podcasting, there's only two pitches that stand out to me because most pitches are copy and paste and most pitches like sometimes they'll get the name of the site. You just know that they don't care. It's so obvious. And the pitches that stand out to me have a video element like they took time to be like, create a personal video, maybe using Loom, you know, saying like, Hey, I saw your show and like, like, did it like just something personal? And one time someone had a video, but you could tell it was a video made to like a ton of people that does not count. I mean, hey, you spree like, it's the videos purposely to me taking a screenshot of my show saying, Hey, I listen to this episode. This is what really resonated with me. And here and look, I left you a five star review. What is the give? How do you make it? Not about you? What is the give in that correspondence? And unfortunately, most people come at it with me. Me, me, you should. You should. You should like telling me what I should do. Like, I'm sorry, are you? Are you paying me? Like, like, you know what I mean? It's just like, it's a it's while it's very entitled most of the messages I get.
Speaker1: [00:29:32] Yeah, that's why I always say, like, you have to do the mental gymnastics and step out of your role as a founder and a seller, and to think because you're not selling to the podcast, so you're never going to buy their product. The editor is not going to buy their product, but they're in the position to maybe put the story out in front of people who will. So how can you not sell to them? Otherwise, you might as well just get an ad. So, yeah, one hundred percent, I am aligning with it. Do you have any other things because you're on the other side, the receiving end of pitches, some things that really irk you.
Speaker2: [00:30:00] Um, the entitlement irks me. There's one company that's that's scraped all of my guests. I was livid. I was so angry and I made sure to do something about it, but screamed, You mean scraped? Like they scraped the internet for all of my guests names and reached out to them? And like, like including that, I was like a part of this. It was awful. So I don't think most people are going to do that, but it happens. And then I had to take care of that. They went to my podcast and they scraped information of all my guest names, and then they use some automation system to send emails trying to sell them something, including my identity. I mean, these are the kind of things that happen when you have a bigger show. But yeah, so that pissed me, that made me really angry. One thing is you'll rarely see me post negative stuff because I just don't believe in putting that kind of stuff in the world. And theirs was one of them because I felt like I had to let every single woman I've ever interviewed know. So I posted it everywhere. Privately, I emailed. I mean, like, it was crazy.
Speaker2: [00:30:59] So the other thing is, don't create extra work for people. I can't stand it when people don't have booking links, like especially if they're asking me to be a guest on their show, like, have a booking link. Like, don't don't ask me, what is your availability? I don't, I don't know. Like, I don't have availability. Like, I need to make it. So I have booking links or ask yourself, how can I save this person time? What can I? What can I offer? What can I do? A few people have said that they have huge audiences and newsletters and stuff. Honestly, it doesn't really like. I think that would appeal to most people. It doesn't appeal to me because I'm so about the mission of the show that I'm like, Oh, you're just trying to get me right now and I don't like that, you know? So I don't know. Like, I really I mean, I'm a I'm a bit unusual in that I really like somebody who has a really candid message and it's really about service. These are the things I'd resonate with, but that's so rare that I would see a message like that, right?
Speaker1: [00:32:02] Everyone's all about them. That's why it's so important for founders to actually practice pitching so they can understand how to have that value driven conversation. Yeah, that's going to give them way more dividends in their business than that, you know, quick cash grab. It's just knowing how to bring more people into the world into your universe.
Speaker2: [00:32:18] Or how about like finding something like, I just met with this guy the other day or I, like, heard him speak and I went to his website and he had some stuff wrong on his website. And so I shot him an email. I was like, Hey, by the way, I don't know if you've noticed this, this and this was wrong. And this is like the experience I had as someone who was interested in your topic. He was like, Whoa, I didn't know. I just changed it. Thank you so much. What are the small little things you could do to be helpful? Like, can you tweet some? I don't know. Just small tweets, something give feedback on something I don't know. You know, it's just asking yourself the question What can I do right now to be helpful and to save the person time? Like, just change your frame of reference of getting and convincing into like being and showing up for others?
Speaker1: [00:33:03] Yeah. So like, keep it short, you know, have say in the subject line exactly what the pitch is instead of, you know, walking around the message. So one hundred percent that that is aligned with how I kind of came into PR by literally cold calling. I don't have any relationships to lean on, so I just have to figure out what would irk someone less and less and less. So I'm glad that that you validated that. All right. So there's one more thing I want to ask you is I work with the underdog, right? And you get this two because you're all about serving the people who probably need that extra push. So for the small business that maybe doesn't have all the Instagram followers, maybe they feel like they're they don't like tech or they're not tech savvy and they're looking out into the world and everyone's got so many more followers. They've got editors and filters. What do you have to say to those people?
Speaker2: [00:33:47] Ok, there's a favorite blog post I have. It's called the thousand true fans. I think we're so caught up and lost in this digital age and all these different marketing tactics and communication and blah blah blah blah blah that we, we we lose focus that all we truly need is a thousand true fans to build an economically sustainable business. So definitely Google search a thousand true fans. I don't remember the URL, but it's very popular. It was written ages ago. And think about Are there a thousand people in your target market and who can? What can you build to properly serve them? And can they afford to buy what you have? And if you have a thousand people in there like you're well on your way to building a profitable company, I'm going to I have this thing on on my computer screen, this mathematical equation from someone that I really admire and it says, OK, so I said a thousand. So double it for a second. Two thousand customers at thirty nine dollars a month is almost a million dollars a year. You don't need to dominate any market. You don't need to disrupt anything. You don't need to conquer the competitor. You can add one new customer a day and. For you know it, you'll have a million dollar machine, wouldn't that be enough and most importantly, have fun?
Speaker1: [00:35:07] Mic drop moment right there. That's such a great perspective that you that you've given us. Thank you for that.
Speaker2: [00:35:12] It wasn't me. I think that was Daniel Vassallo, and I copied what
Speaker1: [00:35:15] He said to Daniel as well. Sometimes we need these little a little bit reminders because social media and just building a community, it can seem like just casting the widest net and getting as many people in as possible. And while that can be good, it's not should not be the singular focus.
Speaker2: [00:35:31] Yeah, how can you serve your buyer's market with abundance? And in a situation like mine where I have the Women in Tech podcast, we are a low tech podcast and then I support the community with podcasting and whatever else I have going on. I asked myself of what I'm doing, what is my business? What is my art? Where do my art and my business meet? What is my philanthropy? Just because you're working on something doesn't necessarily mean it's where you make your revenue like it could just be your form of expression, your artwork. And it doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't be paid for your art. But just understanding like not everything. Not every test needs to serve the purpose of making a dollar, you know, but it's important for us as creators and especially in this digital age. So founders or any type of professional to understand when we're investing our time into the different activities we're investing our time into. What role are we playing in those moments? So like, let's even take this podcast right now, like why am I? Why am I on your show? I just like I just like you like I just, I don't know, you know, like, it has nothing to do with my my like, I don't want anything from your listeners. I don't want anything from you. Like, I like you. I appreciate a relationship. It really means a lot to me that you proactively like, celebrate women. I also like, like to be a supportive person. So like, there's nothing that I like. I'm not expecting to make even one dollar from being here right now. So but an outsider can like look at guesting on a podcast as like, oh, a sales thing or like thought leadership, or I don't know a myriad of other things that people like try to get on podcasts for literally want nothing other than to support people and to support you.
Speaker2: [00:37:21] I'd love to support your listeners, and that's just because I'm like a kind hearted person. So and I know that feeling like I built the first Action Sports Social Network, and I know how that feeling of feeling alone in the journey or feeling I know what it means to to that feeling of like, I don't know how I could get through this challenge or I don't know how I can make it the next day. Or I know that feeling when my dishes are so high, I can't even function because my house is so clutter free because I can't think straight or stuff going on. I get all the feelings and it pains me that people aren't more open. And so if I could do anything, let me just show up in this world as an open person. So other people in this world aren't alone. So that's literally the only reason why I'm showing up right now. So just ask yourself, as you're spending time, why are you choosing to spend time in the ways you are? And don't confuse the times that you're just maybe doing something like I'm doing right now as it's everything's supposed to be making revenue or making a buck or getting a customer because I'm not trying to do any of those things showing up right now on your podcast,
Speaker1: [00:38:22] And I don't think your business or revenue has suffered. In fact, you have an even bigger following now because you're so true to your Y.
Speaker2: [00:38:29] Maybe and maybe not. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's yeah,
Speaker1: [00:38:33] But that's amazing. So with that, I think we'll wrap this up. This has been not only a full circle moment, but I feel so inspired. I feel so fulfilled. I could talk to you for hours and hours or so many. So I think one, I have to have you just back on the show. That's that's the only it's a
Speaker2: [00:38:48] Lot of you for me. It's so hard to show up. Do you know how many people want? Are too scared to have their first episode and then they quit because they like because it's hard to podcast to create any content. So I'm really I'm stoked for you that you've kept it going. You're consistent, you're helping so many people and you're building an amazing business and you're championing so many amazing people that wouldn't have been seen otherwise. Like, It's so cool.
Speaker1: [00:39:13] You too. You too. And on that note, can you tell our listeners if they want to find out more about you, if what you're saying is really vibing with them, how can they find out more about you?
Speaker2: [00:39:21] Sure. I'm at Espree Devora on all social, and if you want to email me, it's espree@hey.com So it's E S P R E E at h e y dot com. And if I if you don't hear back like, just message again. I just I get a lot of inbound, so I do my best to keep up. Remember not to take it personally when someone doesn't get back to you right away. We're all busy and human, and most of the time we're just telling ourself our own narratives and stories, and they have nothing to do with what's actually going on. So yeah, just follow up.
Speaker1: [00:39:53] Yeah, that's so generous to offer your email. And yes, you know, you have permission to email her, but please, please, please make it, make it valuable for her and not just be about me, me, me. So thank you. Thank you so much for being here. As for?
Speaker2: [00:40:06] Horace, thank you for having me.
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