Episode 64: The Ugly Truth Everyone Needs To Hear About Online Marketing with Copywriter Tarzan Kay
Everyone is obsessed with selling their products and services. They use all sorts of marketing gimmicks. Worse, they overpromise but don't deliver.
However, most of these flaws need to be addressed in the business founder's marketing language details. Unfortunately, similar marketing practices like these have become 'prevailing standards.'
If this is the case, then does marketing your business mean following the approaches and processes set by influential institutions and persons?
What if there are honest and better ways to connect with your audience? Are you open to doing it?
This better approach to marketing your business involves vulnerability.
You probably expected a different answer. But let's face this—your audience is more knowledgeable than ever!
Your market knows if you're here to serve them or not. That's why becoming more open to your target audience builds trust and empathy.
As to how you can do better marketing through this approach, you're about to find out in this episode. Tarzan Kay joins us in Small Business PR Podcast for this uncomfortable yet honest conversation about marketing to help your business grow.
"Being an entrepreneur is fundamentally like a growth experience and personal growth. You can't keep going in your business and not grow from it. That's been one of the greatest places where I've gotten this growth, healing, joy, and connection. It's by sharing what's meaningful to me. That's really what sets you apart from your competitors."
-Tarzan Kay
Tarzan Kay is a former copywriter-for-hire who specializes in emails that are fun to read and more addictive than Netflix. Her online courses teach how to write story-based copy and make consistent sales from a small email list without using fear or FOMO. Her company's mission is to make high-integrity marketing the new status quo for online business.
If you've been searching for honest conversations on better online marketing, look no further, for this episode is for you! Join us in this intimate discussion as we drop the ugly truth you need to hear to help your small business finally be heard, seen, and valued.
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
Why customers are expecting more value for their money
Moving from coercive persuasion to value-based messaging
Lessons from a business expert to generate millions in revenue
The myths of mindset in the marketing industry
Crafting and delivering on your business' promises
How personal vulnerability inspired genuine connection with customers
If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachou.com/masterclass.
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Gloria Chou on LinkedIn: Gloria Chou
Join Gloria Chou's PR Community: Small Biz Pros: By Gloria Chou
Visit Tarzan Kay’s website: tarzankay.com
Read more true stories from Tarzan Kay: Tarzan Kay Substack
Additional Resources:
Join the Small Biz PR Pros FB group
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Here’s a glance at this episode…
[05:11 I used those tactics like all the scarcity, all the urgency, authority, reciprocity. Now I'm learning. There is still a place for those strategies. But there's also a way to use them without being coercive.
[09:49] You have to call people out. You have to invite people to the table and have uncomfortable conversations. You're using your privilege in that sense to be able to be an agent of change.
[12:25] That's really important to consider: what actually is your promise? And what are you actually sure you can deliver on?
[17:55] There is an element of that when it comes to messaging. You're actually kind of lobbying stuff out there, and seeing what comes back and listening to what your people say, and what they really respond to and lean into that.
[19:44] It has been really the number one most rewarding thing about my business. It is to allow myself to be vulnerable and be seen and loved in spite of how messy I am and how inconsistent I have been sometimes. It is just such a very healing and beautiful thing.
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Tarzan Kay 0:00
How would you explain your business if you didn't care, like what someone said or how they reacted? And whenever I ask a client that question, they'll immediately be like, oh, it's this. And they'll tell me like some bullshit about their industry, that like everybody believes and nobody talks about. And I'm like, oh, that's the thing that you should probably be talking about.
Gloria Chou 0:23
Hey friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional, yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. What's up small business heroes welcome back to the small business PR Podcast. Today we're gonna have a really open and honest and vulnerable conversation. My friend Tarzan Kay, many of you have heard of her. She's a former copywriter and one of the best copywriters out there, in my opinion, and we're gonna share about what's changing in copywriting and her lessons from helping people generate millions of dollars in revenue. So welcome to the show, Tarzan.
Tarzan Kay 1:17
Thanks for having me, Gloria, I really love talking to so we've been looking forward to this interview for a while.
Gloria Chou 1:23
Now, this is going to be probably a little bit different than what most people would expect, you know, from an episode, the tips on how to get people to buy and all the things like that. But as of the time of recording, a lot of things are uncertain in the economy. And so there's this talk about how the gold rush of the digital course, you know, journey that we've all been on, you know, is changing. So kind of just like, what what are some of the things that you're noticing now that you're feeling is very different from like, kind of the height of the Gold Rush, maybe you know, in 2020.
Tarzan Kay 1:55
Well, I think there's a fallout of the Gold Rush, which is like a lot of people who spent a lot of money and like spent their savings, but a lot of courses and programs on a big promise that nobody delivered on. And what I'm noticing like, especially in the business to business, or like the business to entrepreneur circuit is consumers like really, actually demanding more from more for their money, and also calling things out. When they see them, like there's, I think there's just like, people are starting to wake up to certain marketing language that they've just seen over and over and over. And they've bought those promises and found that it didn't work for them for whatever reason, or they did all the things they were told to do. And when it didn't work, they were diagnosed with like mindset issues, or some bullshit like that. And like we at, in my company, we have a mission. And it occurred to me the other day, so we, we would read our mission and values every single week. And really, I guess if I could sum up our mission, it's that we want to change the marketplace for online courses. And we want it to be honest and accessible to consumers. And I've done like a lot of work and calling out practices that are not okay. And I'm, me along with a lot of other people who are doing this work. And I feel like I'm looking around me and I'm like, wow, people are really tuning into this. And they're really saying like this, I am not okay with this. And I'm expecting I'm actually, if I'm buying this thing, I'm actually I'm willing to put in the work, but I expect to get results from the work that I put in. And I think that's a really important shift.
Gloria Chou 4:01
Yeah, and I think as as you know, we go through this, I have to admit that I was also playing into the whole like, funnels, scarcity, countdown timer, because that was what was around. And people were just perpetuating the same stuff that the top five row marketers were saying. So when I was starting to build my business, I was looking around with no guidance. And I also felt fell into that. And I think through kind of your own journey, looking at how you can change your marketing to be more aligned with your values account my business because my business is 90% women of color, right? People who traditionally have been marginalized, and my messaging started to shift so it's okay to be on that journey. Like I'm, I'm far from perfect, but I want to thank you for the work that you're doing. And I even notice like in my email is like maybe I shouldn't write this word are like, is this really aligned? So, first of all, I want to say thank you so much for doing the work. We're all doing the work, it's on all of us, right? All of us needs need to do the work.
Tarzan Kay 4:54
Yeah, I want to say like, I have done it too, like, I have made millions in my business. And like, my, the headline on my website right now is still, like, build a seven figure relationship with your email list or something like that, like, I fell for it all, I used all of those tactics like all the scarcity, all the urgency, like, authority, reciprocity, like I used every persuasion tactic that I learned. And now I'm learning, I think there is still a place for those strategies. But there's also a way to use them without being coercive like we have, we have these principles of persuasion, and each on their own, they're like, neither good nor evil. But when you layer them all, on top of each other, you actually get coercion. But we all learn this, and like those of us who you know, like made lots of money in the Gold Rush of online courses, and are now trying to figure it out. Like, we actually were indoctrinated without our consent, and just passed all those things on but now we can actually learn and we can do better. And I think it's important to recognize that I also think what's really insidious is like, I can look at like someone like Frank Kern, or Grant Cardone who's like always posing with like, his airplane, and his like sexy wife. And as you know, as sales pages have like flashing things and like five left, four left, three left, like really, it's really high tech. And it's clearly like super slimy and super coercive. However, then I look at like, the women's empowerment space, and all of these female, like largely white women, who are using the same strategies, as Frank Kern and Grant Cardone. But they're like couched in language of female empowerment. And it looks like a woman's movement. But it's actually based on the same foundation, which is highly extractive. So like, for those of us who, you know, learned our business models from those women, I think we can like give ourselves a bit of grace, because that's difficult to recognize. It's like the, it's just like the air that we've been breathing. And maybe you learn from this woman who appeared to be like, very kind and very loving, and was like, teaching you about, like how to build urgency into your promotion. And there was no conversation about whether or not like, that's okay. And perhaps like, what you might use like you, with your audience that is like, largely women of color, like that presents some really unique challenges. And I myself, like, I used all the strategies that I learned, and they worked for me. And I thought it was because I was really smart. And I was a really great writer, and I worked really hard. And those things are also true. But what it took me a long time to recognize is like, the role of all of the dominant identities that I hold, like, I'm highly educated, I'm white, I am thin, I am nice looking like I'm charismatic, like, all of these things. Like those with when you take away even one of those things, like even my like, I'm also able bodied and I have zero like neuro divergence that I know of, like, when you take away one of those things, it has such an impact on your ability to build this sort of business that these like white women leaders are saying is like going to change your life for everyone. It can can change anyone's lives. Everyone has a course in them like this will bring you the financial stability that you have been looking for and freedom for like, it's like such a seductive message. And it's only true for a very small percentage of people. And it's okay to not know that like, it's okay, because that message is everywhere. It's coming at us in all directions. And it's taken me like a number of years to like, unpack it. And I basically like, over the last two years, dismantled the whole thing and had to figure out like how do I actually do this in a way that is non coercive, and like feels in alignment with my own values.
Gloria Chou 9:36
Yeah, I love that and watching you not only do the journey journey and work on yourself, but then also calling out other people, which is real. What like you can't do this work in a vacuum, right? Like you have to call people, all you have to invite people to the table and have uncomfortable conversations. And you're using your privilege in that sense to be able to be an agent of change. And, and I love that what you said about kind of like how even as women, we're buying into the internalized capitalism, the internalized white supremacy, with, you know, the privilege and the access that traditional, like, traditionally, people in my audience, they don't have access and privilege, right. So I remember you had Kelly Diels, you know, come on to my podcast, and she said something she's like, you know, like, if I'm looking through your Instagram, or your web page, and you are for women, and I am scrolling through your page, I don't see a single person who has not, you know, different body shape or a different color, or from a different background. And like, I can sense that right away that this is like pure BS. So I'm very conscious now of the work that I'm doing. Luckily, for me, like my audience, just happens to be very diverse. But the language I was using was actually like, steal a lot of that internalized like, white bro supremacy. So thank you for calling that out. So how do you think people are changing now? Like, what what is the work that we need to do? Like as small business owners? Like, let's say, like, I, you know, someone's just starting off, they don't have a big audience. So what what can they do? What is the responsibility? That's, that day that they have, if they just have a tiny little audience.
Tarzan Kay 11:05
Right. Well, okay, there's, I think we're talking about a few different things here. But if we're talking about, we're talking about selling, and we're talking about trying to sell in a values based way without over promising, I do think it's really like, it is important to distinguish among industries, like one of my clients right now is a book coach. And she teaches people how to, like take their draft of a novel, and like, actually get it written and write a book that their readers will really love. And her course, is $500. And it's an evergreen course. So it actually does need to have like some elements of urgency, some reason for people to buy. So you know, she's building in some timely bonuses and things like that. But that's very different, like asking people to make a $500 purchase, like giving them perhaps like a window of five to seven days to make the decision. And the promise is not like you're going to get public, you're going to get an agent, and you're going to get published, and you're going to be a best selling author. And this is going to like change your financial future forever. Like none of those promises are in there. So I think that's like really important to consider, like what actually is your promise? And what are you actually sure you can deliver on like, I cannot deliver on the promise of making everybody's email marketing, a seven figure thing. However, what I know that I can promise on is like that I can teach people how to really enjoy email marketing, how to, like get the sorts of replies from their subscribers that say things like, oh my God, this is the best email in my inbox, or like, I missed your email last week, I noticed you were away, like everything good. Like, you know, like, I know that I can like teach people certain things. And they will get that result if they do the work. And that's, I think, really important for businesses of all stages. But like something to think about early on is like, what is that results? That you, that's like a middle of the road result that anyone can get, like not if they do every single thing you tell them to do. Like, what if they did, like 20% of the things that you told them to do. And what result would they get? And what would that look like as a promise? And what I have found for myself is like, actually, that when you put that kind of messaging, like onto a sales page, or into a sales email, there's like, I feel such a sense of relief. Like I don't feel that when I read emails like that, I'm like, oh, like, it doesn't make my heart palpitate like, oh my God, I'm gonna like fail if I don't get this thing. So that I think is important when considering the thing that you're going to sell. And in terms of actually like growing an audience of buyers like I, for a long time, like I had, I did have and granted this is like using all these tactics I no longer use. And I did make it to a million dollars in revenue with an email list of well under 10,000 people. And in fact, I think the first year that I made a million dollars, I had maybe like seven or 8000 people on my email list and I know people have done it with less. And I do think what was really important is that I focused a lot on organic list growth like the value of an email subscriber that found you organically, because they spent an hour listening to you on a podcast interview, or, you know, like I also spoke on stages traveled a decent amount prior to, like pre pandemic. And that list growth really, like it's slow. As you know, like an as an expert in PR, like the growth that you get from PR. Like, it's not as reliably fast as like just running ads, which comes with its own set of problems. But those, like those subscribers that I got from speaking on stages, and speaking in podcasts, like they are like lifers, like I have subscribers who've been reading my emails for five years, then I send a lot of emails. So I do think, you know, it's one of the reasons that I like talking to you and wanted to come on your podcast, because I am like a huge believer and publicity and have seen it make a really big difference for my own business.
Gloria Chou 15:43
Yeah. And that organic growth, right, that organic growth, but it comes from clarifying your message. I think a lot of times, people, let's say for my audience, right, they're making a skin cream, or they have eczema, right? What how can they get started in like clarifying their message when they're so focused on their product? And like doing all the reels they might, they might not even feel like this work is relevant to them. But they still have to write copy, they still have to connect with people through messaging.
Tarzan Kay 16:08
Yeah. So I think it's important to know that like messaging, when I look at the evolution of the messaging, and my business over time, like, it is so much stronger now. And it also has changed so much, like consistently. So, and I, myself have arrived at the message like through my writing. So I think like, that's something I had heard someone teach, it was someone who was teaching about blogging just many years ago. And she had said, if you want to start a blog, just like start your blog, and give it like six months to take shape, like it might not be about the thing that you think it was about. And I did really take that message to heart because one, like, I've sort of done that with my email marketing, like I started out, being like, okay, I need to send emails. And so I'm going to send emails every two weeks, and I'm not really sure what they're going to be about. But I just gave myself the space. And it was like through the writing, that I found what the message would be. And I think one of the biggest things is like listening to customer feedback. And that's what I really love so much about email marketing is you get the feedback so quickly, like, I can send an email on a specific topic that I think is like, so important, and so critical to my message. And people don't really respond much. And then I'll write about something else. And I'm like, whoa, people really care about this issue. It's kind of like comedians, like, comedians don't just like write their jokes, and then go do their Netflix special, like, they go out in front of their people and see which jokes are funny and which are not. So I think there is an element of that when it comes to messaging. And that's like putting, like, you're actually kind of lobbing stuff out there, and seeing what comes back and like listening to what your people say, and what they really respond to and lean into that.
Gloria Chou 18:11
I really do agree that the more you kind of take off all the masks and jackets and stuff, you're you can attract your tribe. But it's easier said than done. Right? A lot of people were just so worried of being found out about who they truly are. But that is the essence of what's going to get them that community. So do you have any tips for someone who wants to share so much, but they're afraid and they're being told all these things, like do this and do this real, but they really just have like their own message, but they're afraid to share it?
Tarzan Kay 18:38
Yeah, I mean, those people should be on my email list, because I'm really good at that. Okay, so I just like to add some backup for your listeners background. I am like very open and vulnerable with my email list. And that's probably the most consistent feedback that I get from my subscribers is like, they're really grateful to have this sort of behind the scenes look at what it's really like to, to have a business and like what's happening, you know, in my actual day to day, well, it's happening not like because a lot of entrepreneurs will share from like, you know, the other side when they've like, figured it all out. And then it's like this bullshit rags to riches story. So something I've actually never read Brené Brown, but my subscribers often quote her to me, and I know she said something about how being vulnerable inspires others to be vulnerable. And I've definitely noticed that in my with my emails, but someone does have to go first. And it has been like really, the number one most rewarding thing about my business is to like, allow myself to be vulnerable, and be seen and loved in spite of how like messy I am and how like inconsistent I have been sometimes like, it is just like such a, like really a very, very healing and beautiful thing. And I think as entrepreneurs, like we spend a lot of time talking about, like maximizing our revenue, and blah, blah, blah. And we don't spend a lot of time talking about like, how much joy our businesses can bring to us? Like how much like growth and healing there is there? But being an entrepreneur, as you know, Gloria is like, fundamentally, like a growth, experience and personal growth, like you can't keep going in your business and not like grow from it. And that to me, for me, like, that's been one of the, like, greatest, you know, places where I've gotten this growth and healing and joy and connection is by like, really sharing what's meaningful to me. And that's really like, if what sets you apart from your competitors, like those things that you're a little bit afraid to say. Or like, how would you, I think, a good question. And I think I got this from another copywriter, Laura Belgray, I think it was her that said like, how would you explain your business if you didn't care? Like what someone said, or how they reacted. And whenever I ask a client, that question, they'll immediately be like, oh, it's this. And they'll tell me like, some bullshit about their industry that like, everybody believes and nobody talks about, and I'm like, oh, that's the thing that you should probably be talking about.
Gloria Chou 21:37
I mean, leaders take a stance, right? And you're gonna get some haters. But I always I almost feel like, if you get some haters, that's a sign you're going in the right way. Because if you appeal to everyone, then you absolutely appeal to no one and you're never going to find that tribe.
Tarzan Kay 21:50
Yeah, I would agree, I think what usually happens when you put something out like that, that's like, really brave. And a bit shocking is like those who are you're going to be your best customers, those people are going to lean in closer. It's like some people take two steps forward, and then a bunch of other people take two steps back or one step back. And that's okay. Like, that's part of it.
Gloria Chou 22:16
Yeah. And don't let the scarcity mentality of capitalism say you have to get everything you have to sell at all costs, because that's actually the quickest way to burnout and not differentiating yourself. I actually learned that as well. I just remember so vividly. I was having dinner with my husband, and I was working all day, you know, during the pandemic, just close, close, close. And he looked at me while I was chewing my food, you know, in the DMs, he's like, we haven't talked all day, I made you a dinner, and you won't even look at me, is it even worth it? Is it really worth it? And I started to reexamine my, my own relationship with this, right, and he's Italian. Born in Italy, they have a work life balance in a way that I feel like Americans just were never taught. And so I started my own journey with with internalized capitalism. And as you know, I had a surgery, you know, I had fiber to fibroid tumor removed, and that whole thing that chakras, like the blocked energy, that whole thing has really made me examine where it's like, we've been lied to, or it's like, more is better, but it's not about more is better. Because then you get more refunds, you get people who are really annoying, and people who maybe were sold because of scarcity, but really aren't willing to do the work and experienced transformation and that it's actually more stress. So I'd rather now just attract the people who was like a hell yes. And like empowered than someone who was like, I don't know, but I feel FOMO and give me like a bunch of problems. That just sucks my energy at the end of the day.
Tarzan Kay 23:38
Yeah, I completely agree. And since I made this shift in my messaging, like I have less customers and less revenue, but also I like my customers are just they show up more like they're better customers like they like my stuff. They complain last fewer customer service emails. I was listening to a podcast recently by a business owner I've been following for a number of years. And she said, and this was really like, intended to be like a brave statement by because like, how dare a woman say something like this. She said, I really wanted to make as much money as possible. And initially, it was like, oh, good for her. And then I was like, like, what, like, that's important. So like, listen to people, when they say things like that because someone whose goal is to make as much money as possible, is not thinking about what's best for their customers. They're thinking about how to get the most customers. and how to issue the fewest number of refunds. Like that's like, if you just listen to the way that people market themselves. And once you develop an ear for it, like, you will very quickly figure out like, I would either want to learn from this person or I don't want to learn from this person. And it can be, it can be hard because in the female entrepreneur space in the women's empowerment, Kelly Diels is a great word for it. She calls it the female lifestyle empowerment brand, I think. And the, it is a lot of like lifestyle marketing, like people say that it's about, like, you'll have more time with your family and more time for your passions. And I would just straight up like not believe anybody that says that, like I have seen so many people say that. I know that's not their lives. And even me, like I have very good work life boundaries. And I always have, from the I have from the beginning, mostly because my husband was highly intolerant of me working past five o'clock. But regardless, like having an online, having any type of business is really hard work. And it takes time. It takes time in the day, and it takes time. It takes years to grow. And so like that's, like, just pay attention to that language. When people say that they're selling you, when people are selling you a dream, you should know that like it's a dream. And look for someone who is honest about what it really takes because it is hard. And people will fail if they're coming into this thinking that it's like going to be a picnic.
Gloria Chou 26:38
Yeah, I think another thing I learned to through through doing this work and Brittany McBean who's who's my copywriter is, you know, in the beginning, we were told it's about your mindset, right? It's like, and it is true. It's our mindset determines, like our perspective. And so I think physiologically metaphysically, cosmically, that does make sense. But in terms of marketing, we're taught like, it's all about mindset. And she's like, no, it's actually the industry, it's actually the PR, and marketing industry that has told you that you only can do it by, you know, paying these like mad men, white men who have been controlling the media gaze, and you have to pay them for privilege and access to be in the media. It's that, it's the narrative, right, that keeps you small. And so it's so now I've changed my entire messaging that's not about the person's limiting beliefs. But what we've been told by the industry where it's like, you need to know someone, and you need to be invited in these, like fancy VIP circles and have VIP friends. And I think that was like the single most, like, game changing messaging was like to go from that to being like, we've been lied to by the industry, and it's really not your fault. Right? So that to me, like, illuminated so much about, like, my own blindness to what I've been told as well.
Tarzan Kay 27:47
Yeah, that is so critical. And I think like, I, for me, like one of my just sort of like, something that I need to be aware of, when I'm telling people like, go out, and like seek publicity, like, it's gonna be so great. Like, you could, like apply to speak at this conference or whatever. Like, I have been, like steeped in white supremacy from the day that I was born. And I thought that I was just like, confident, oh, I'm like, confident, I can go and like, pitch myself to like a client that I'm not really qualified to serve or like to speak at a conference where like, people have much more experienced than me. And it took me like a number of years to realize, like, that's not confidence, it's actually like whiteness, that's like me being a nice looking white woman who was like born thinking that she had a right to be at the front of the room. And I'm learning, like learning things like that about myself. And the way that I talk about business has been like, really, like humbling to, and now I have to actually like, figure out how to recognize when I'm doing that, so it just made me think about about it, because you talked about mindset. And that's something that is like, it comes up a lot like mine in business to entrepreneur spaces where we talk about, we talk about imposter syndrome, like impostor syndrome for white people, is not the same as impostor syndrome for a person of color or disabled person or like anybody who doesn't like hold all these identities that I do. And, and yet that conversation is like constant like when I hear the word mindset it like my hackles go up immediately. And I have to like, dial it back and be like, okay. Is there something useful here in this conversation about mindset? But I actually think that it is like 99.9%. bullshit.
Gloria Chou 30:01
I mean, especially with the whole, like, energetically, just think positive thoughts and all good things will come your way, if you're white. I love how you're so open and honest about I guess my next question is, you do have white customers. So how do you deal with people who are uncomfortable with you saying that or the haters? How do you deal with that? Because naturally, as you step into leadership, as you become more vocal for the work you're doing, you're gonna get pushback. How do you deal with that?
Tarzan Kay 30:28
Yeah, so like, because of my whiteness, I, basically, for the first, you know, maybe five years, I was in business, like, talk to everybody, like they were white. I talked to everybody, like, they were also like, cisgender women. And so that was like, step one was realizing like, actually, there are a lot of people with a lot of different identities on my email list. And I need to start acknowledging that. And, but because I'm like, all of this stuff, like, I hope that I sound like I know what I'm talking about. But actually, this is very new for me, like I had an experience, I want to say two years ago, but maybe not three years ago, of like someone of a woman of color in my community who, like wrote me this email that really changed my life. And she was like, at an event that I had hosted. And very articulately said, like, here is my experience of you and your business and your event, as a woman of color, as a brown woman, as a Muslim woman. And that I was like, oh, my God, I was like, discovering that I had like a tapeworm, and I didn't even know. And, and so that, like started a whole journey. And I have taken my subscribers on that journey. So they have like, seen and of course, there's new people being added all the time. But I really would consider myself kind of like a bridge person, like, some people who are on my email list have like not had any conversations about the white people and have not had conversations about social justice, or they're not thinking about the impact of their marketing strategies on marginalized communities. Like they might be having that conversation for the first time. And I guess, because it's new to me, I seem to operate pretty well, like on that bridge, like bringing people over. And I honestly, what's what's actually harder to deal with than the people, people who are not there for the message. I'm like, you know what, we're not a match, like bye. I actually don't spend a lot of time worrying about those people. I get emails from them. Occasionally, someone will be like, didn't sign up for a lecture. And I do not care. Like bye. If you're not interested in having that conversation with me, I'm not interested in having you as a subscriber or customer, like I'm done. And, again, like I'm in a position of privilege, like I could afford that. However, I hope that I would have made that choice. Anyway, what I do find is actually been more difficult is like, when I started going down that road and having those conversations, I made so many mistakes, and I still do. And what was harder was someone saying like, hey, you said this thing, and actually like, this is not okay, for XYZ reasons. And I had to like, be humbled, and learn from people who know more than me. And initially, I would like apologize a lot and be like, I said, this thing, and I'm sorry, and now I want to say it like this, or whatever. And I've since like gotten a lot better at taking feedback. And so I just listen and I make changes. And I think that's important to know. Especially like, for white people who have never been like, called into such a conversation. And they're scared and they don't know what to do. Like, yes, like, it's, you're gonna feel like really dysregulated for a while. And that's part of it. Like sorry, but if you like, if you don't feel dysregulated and like really scared and confused, you're not actually invested in the issue and you're not like, you ought to try harder. So that's part of it, and that's okay. And you will like and I still feel like that sometimes, but it's gotten certainly a lot more comfortable. Like I have learned how to sit with discomfort. I have learned how to be okay, with what I don't know. Like, there's when I think about this is something that I just actually just like days ago, put together about social justice, which is like a lot of people, what a lot of white people don't want to engage in any conversation about social justice because they feel so helpless, and they don't know what to do. And they're like, okay, fine, this is this problem. But what do I do? And I think it's like, it's to jump ahead to the doing is like, weigh in, like, I've made a lot of changes in my business. And in some ways, I feel like I'm not even there yet. There's like, a long journey of understanding. And, and this doesn't just apply to white people, it's like, as an able bodied person, like, it is going to take me, like time, maybe years like to really understand disability justice, and like, how I could be a part of that change. And so I guess, like to answer your question, like, we just really have to give ourselves grace, like, I know, that I'm doing my work, like, I know, that I am showing up and being vulnerable, and I'm trying really hard, and I'm like, gonna make more mistakes, I might say the wrong thing. And it's okay. Because that's part of it.
Gloria Chou 36:05
And for me, too, as I learned to is with my proximity to white privilege, I'm on this journey. And I think the upside to it is so worth it. Right? Yeah, we get we're uncomfortable, we get called out but the upside is you form such deep connections, and you truly, you truly are changing people's lives. I mean, I mean, wouldn't you say like the Tarzan now, and the work you're doing is so much more impactful than just like not just like thinking that it doesn't even exist this whole like social justice lens.
Tarzan Kay 36:33
Oh, my God, I have never been prouder of my business. And like this, we don't have to get into this. But like, I also just let go all of my employees and dialed my business way back, I just like needed a rest. And I am and still I'm like, I feel so proud of what I've been able to do. I feel so proud of what I'm doing right now. Like it the work is like so much more meaningful. Like we haven't, we haven't touched on this yet. But um, something that I've like talked about, sort of through the lens of persuasion and marketing, but also just about my life, which I share a lot of is that I'm a cult survivor. And I've written about that, like a decent amount in my email marketing. And people share their stories with me and like seeing people, like I've seen many of my subscribers like recognized through my writing that they themselves are either like in a cult or in some sort of like cultic relationship or maybe like a situation of abuse with a coach or whatever like, that is like, that is hearing those stories and seeing those people make changes in their lives is far more meaningful than any amount of revenue that I have ever made.
Gloria Chou 37:53
Woof, that is so powerful. For those of you who are not watching, I just close my eyes. And I just had a moment because then you truly realize like you're dismantling the machine of internalized capitalism, where you are reduced to just a money making machine like you are this lived expansive experience. And through your journey, you're connecting with other people, right? That's incredible. Thank you so much for for being here. And I'm, I'm just in shock and an awe and the fact that not only do I get to speak with you, but the fact that you have to share with me and my audience so openly about your own journey as it is happening. It's just so beautiful to witness. So thank you so much for being you.
Tarzan Kay 38:31
Oh my gosh, oh, thank you. I like, I, you know, I do all these things in my business that make money, I help people with their sales funnels, I write emails. But really, like when I when people ask me what I do, I usually tell them, I'm a writer, and all of these things that I do in my business, most especially writing emails like that, actually how I get to be a writer. And, you know, having people that read those emails, like, that is so meaningful to me. And I'm so so grateful. So thank you, Gloria.
Gloria Chou 39:11
Thank you so much. So how can people I mean, obviously, I could talk to you for hours and days, and I just want to keep having you back on. But how can people take the next step? If something and you said so many things, they resonated with you, how can they take the next step? How can they find you? What is the resource? What should they do? What's the next step after listening to this episode?
Tarzan Kay 39:30
It was so a lot of like, basically everything that we have talked about today I talk about with my email list, and that's, unfortunately right now basically the only way to hear from me. I'm hardly on social media. at all, and I don't really publish blogs, all of my best work, all of my, all of these explorations, they're all in my email list which you can get on. I have several freebies on my website, tarzankay.com. But what I would recommend is skipping straight to my email list, go to tarzankaycom/join. And, you know, get the emails for the emails. And because there'll be more of this conversation, I also have some writing that you can read without subscribing on Substack. And that's been like my latest project that I'm having so much fun with. And on Substack it's actually not about business. I just tell stories, like right now, I just went on a solo camping trip, I'm learning to camp. I'm in the middle of a divorce right now. I sometimes talk about my cult stuff. I'm also a drug user. And I talk about, like drug use and responsible drug use and, you know, normalizing those conversations.
Gloria Chou 40:47
Amen. I'm sorry. I literally said this to my friend the other day, I was like, we need to normalize a conversation on drugs because alcohol is a drug sugar, cocaine is a drug.
Tarzan Kay 40:57
Tobacco is a drug.
Gloria Chou 40:58
Like so many things, right? It's crazy. What we've been brainwashed to think that it's this like false dichotomy of what is acceptable and what is not. That could be a whole another episode.
Tarzan Kay 41:08
Yeah. Please invite me back for that conversation. So I'm talking a bit about that on Substack, which is a tarzankay.substack.com. And you can read that without subscribing. But my emails are the place and I replied, I read all of my replies and reply to as many of them as I can. I'm actually, they're having great conversations. So and that's the work that I'm the most proud of and is the most current.
Gloria Chou 41:31
Yeah and I love those things on Substack as well. So definitely go to tarzankay.com/join, please, please, please read what she has to say on Substack. You don't have to comment, you might not feel called to but I know people are listening to this. They are reading and somehow it's stirring up something inside of them. That's gonna start them on a journey. So thank you so much for doing that.
Tarzan Kay 41:32
Thanks Gloria.
Gloria Chou 41:55
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