Episode 70: How to Sell Without "Selling" and Grow a Profitable Business in 2023 with Pat Flynn
Is it possible to sell without actually selling?
Can you really grow a business by putting people over profits?
These are just a few questions that are a part of any business founder's PR journey and growth.
Business founders frequently face this challenge since most of us have been conditioned to sell our products or services through conventional PR and hard selling techniques.
Fortunately, you can flip the narrative of traditional selling by using this approach that has helped several small business owners grow profitable businesses.
What you're about to discover is the mindset you need to genuinely connect with your audience.
It's an unconventional yet proven way to distinguish you from the competition and make people remember you above everyone else.
You need not employ more marketing tactics or brainstorm how to upsell more offers.
Instead, it's all about serving your customers to the best of your abilities.
When you think of your business as an act of service, you converse with your customer, know their pain points, and try to understand how you can best help them.
Sooner or later, you'll be surprised that your business has already grown. That's simply because you focused on serving and not selling. This is the result of aiming to give value before receiving anything else.
This makes all the difference in how you sell your business.
In this episode, Pat Flynn, a renowned author and entrepreneur, joins us to dive deeper into what it exactly takes to sell without "selling" and grow a profitable business in 2023.
"The benefit or the pro of what can come out of that is so much more than the con. When we position it as 'What can I do to serve others?' Then it becomes much easier because even though I still might feel selfishly fearful about this, I know that I'm not going to let that fear get in the way of that service to others."
-Pat Flynn
Pat Flynn is a father, husband, and entrepreneur who lives and works in San Diego, CA. He owns several successful online businesses and is a professional blogger, keynote speaker, Wall Street Journal best-selling author, and host of the Smart Passive Income and AskPat podcasts.
It's time to grow a profitable business in 2023! You can do it by discovering how to sell without selling. This episode is designed to serve you in your PR journey so you can finally be seen, heard, and valued through serving people!
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
The challenges of profits versus people in growing your business
Why the comparison game kills passion in serving your customers
The right questions to ask in organically growing your business
Maximizing the energies of co-creation and collaboration
How to really bring value to the customer experience
Translating the service mindset into your PR pitch
If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachou.com/masterclass.
Resources Mentioned:
Join Gloria Chou's PR Community: Small Biz Pros: By Gloria Chou
Connect with Pat Flynn on Twitter: @PatFlynn
Subscribe to Pat Flynn's YouTube channel: Pat Flynn
Learn more about Smart Passive Income: smartpassiveincome.com
Additional Resources:
Join the Small Biz PR Pros FB group
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Here’s a glance at this episode…
[2:26] I started to discover that more I leaned into helping people, the more it would just come back my way.
[7:21] Unfortunately, in the analogy of life and business, most people are too afraid to do that. But when you think about that person who needs you, who needs your help, you're gonna throw it out there without even thinking because the service and the help for others is what is driving you.
[10:30] The comparison game is a very difficult game to play because you end up doing nothing but questioning your own self-worth, your own timeline, and your own products and services.
[22:06] It's all about value. What value are you providing to them? So instead of, 'Hey, use my service,' the questions that you have to ask are, 'What do you want right now?'
[29:05] When a person understands that you know what they're going through, then they're more likely to listen and to take action on what it is that you have to offer.
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Pat Flynn 0:00
How can you get on somebody's radar? If you feel like you're nobody, right? You're not in the industry, you don't have any credentials. You don't have a huge following like, how do you bring value to somebody?
Gloria Chou 0:10
Hey friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional, yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. All right, everyone's super stoked for this episode of the Small Business PR podcast, I have someone who really doesn't need an introduction, Pat Flynn, he has so many things well, so he is an author of Superfans that you might have read, he is a YouTuber, he is a Pokemon enthusiast. He has a community and he really is one of the people that really embodies his values of people over profit. So thank you so much for being on the show.
Pat Flynn 1:05
Hey, thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. I think it's gonna be an honest one that that needs to happen and hopefully can enlighten people to go down and direction for long term success.
Gloria Chou 1:14
Yeah, so I know usually when you get on podcast is usually about like YouTube growth, or you have SPI so you you're a marketer, but I really want to talk about kind of the scarcity culture of what we've been told by all the quote unquote, bro marketers of scaling, and you know, really putting profit and funnels and strategies first before people. And I think one of the things that you've done super well is you have a profitable business, but everything you do is all about community and people first. So how do you struggle with that challenge of having a profitable company and having a scale, but then also putting people at the forefront of that?
Pat Flynn 1:45
Yeah, I think we need to answer the reason why do we want to grow? And in many cases, the answer is very clear. And it's because you want to help people, which, in which case, cool, then everything, all the decisions you do should be, you know, around that, or at least sprang from that. But in many cases, a lot of people don't even know how to or why to answer that question. It's just like, well, because because that's what everybody else is doing. Or, you know, my many times it's an internal thing, mindset thing, like my worth is tied to how much money I make. And then if you really think about, it's like, well, is that a healthy way to go about life? Probably, probably not. But I've also discovered over the years, and I discovered this early on, because I started to see a lot of success. In my business, my first business was helping people pass an architectural exam. Even before I started teaching business, I started to discover that more I leaned into helping people, the more it would just come back my way. And sometimes it came back in the form of a transaction when I saw the study guide and some other resources to help people pass that exam. But in many cases, and in more cases, actually, the transaction that came back was feedback, positive and constructive feedback. It was in the form of sharing. And this is how I've been able to grow. I don't even consider myself a great marketer, but I'm great at helping people through a problem or through a challenge. And with that requires empathy, understanding where a person is and what they're going through how they're feeling. Because when you can understand that as somebody who's trying to help them, then they're going to be more likely to listen to you through that. I think it was Jay Abraham who said, If you can define the problem better than your target customer, they're going to automatically assume you have the solution. And then again, for whatever reason, whether it's the media or just our friends, or whoever, we always feel like we need a million subscribers, a million followers, a million everything to succeed. But the truth is, and I learned this very early on, there was an essay that was written in 2006, by a man named Kevin Kelly. It's called 1000 True Fans. And the thesis of this paper, if you will, was the idea that, you know, if you're a musician, or an artist, or an entrepreneur, or creative of any sort, you don't need a blockbuster hit in order to have a very successful life in business, you just need 1000 true fans, a true fan being somebody that if you're a musician, for example, they're going to drive eight hours to hear your set and then wait for you to snap a selfie after just because they love you so much. Or if you are a product owner there, they're not even going to read the sales page they know like and trust you enough, so much so that they're just going to go to the buy now button and click buy. Because because they know you have good stuff. These are the people who are going to fight for you. If there's trolls or disrespectful people in the community, they're going to step up into the frontlines and defend you, they almost make you a part of their lives in some way, shape, or form. And so if you have 1000 of those people, let's do some math here. 1000 true fans out of this world have now 8 billion people just 1000 and they're paying you $100 a year for your art, your creative your service, whatever it is, it might be $100 a year, that's less than $10 a month. I mean, that's to Starbucks, right? That's a six figure business. And in many cases, when you connect that that you just need 1000 true fans, then you can focus on not growing and scaling wildly, but you scale the intimacy that you have with your people. That's what you try to do. You go into the heart of who it is that you're serving and what they might need help with. And what happens is when you go so deep into service in that way, those people can't help but recommend you to other people who are going through the same situation. And thus the marketing happens organically and naturally from the inside when you do that. So a lot of people will say like, oh, well, you've got to upsell your audience, no, you observe them. And the beauty of this is, let's say you have 1000 true fans, like maybe you help them with a course, or coaching or whatever it might be. But then there's going to be a subset of those 1000, who want even more of you, or who want more of your resources. And then you can not necessarily go well, now we need 2000, you can still serve the same 1000. But serve them even deeper, maybe now you are hosting live events, maybe now you're offering a little bit more access to you or your team or whatever, again, the business model might be and so this is this is the beauty of this, because we have the tools available to us now to find 1000 people. And that's if you want to do the math there again, it's one person a day for less than three years, can you imagine a completely different lifestyle and change in your life and your what it is that you do and your happiness. Because maybe you're not happy at your job or whatever it might be in less than three years. Can you find one fan a day? I think you could do that. It's much more graspable.
Gloria Chou 5:57
Yeah. Why do you think we're so far removed from this kind of equation, and we're taught that intimacy is inherently not scalable or not profitable?
Pat Flynn 6:04
Maybe because there's not a lot of people who are doing this, and we're not on the receiving end of it. We don't think it's even possible. But it's hard, right? It's hard work. And it requires you getting out of your comfort zone, especially if you're an introvert like me, like talking to people used to be the scariest thing. But even though I still get nervous, when I am seeing something on the schedule, whether it's a podcast interview like this, or even a chat with somebody in my audience, I know that the benefit, or the pro of what can come out of that is so much more than the con, I also think about the reasons why I fear this and usually it's, it's always based on a selfish position, right? I am scared of what people think of me and me, me, me, me, me. That's where we get into trouble. When we make the decisions that we do about us. When we get again, position it as well, what can I do to serve others, then it becomes much easier because even though I still might feel selfishly fearful about this, I know that I'm not going to let that fear get in the way of that service to others. The equivalent might be like, if you were on a on a boat, and you had a life ring, and you were you had that life ring was the equivalent to your knowledge or your skills, your coaching, whatever it is that you can do. There are people out there in the ocean of this world drowning who need that life ring that you have, are you going to are you going to be afraid to send it out to them, because maybe you've never done this before. Are you going to be afraid because you might throw it incorrectly or you're worried about being perfect about that? Unfortunately, in the analogy of life and business, most people are too afraid to do that. But when you again, think about that person who needs you, who needs your help, you're gonna throw it out there without even thinking because the service and the help for others is what is driving you. I've made the mistake before of having the money drive the decisions, and all those things have always ended up failing, or I'm unhappy, or the service isn't the way it should be. Because I'm in it for the money, the money and your earnings are a byproduct of how well you serve your audience. And I think what's helped me stay in this lane is surrounding myself with people who share the same values. And that's really what I think needs to happen in most of our lives. Right? I think Jim Rohn said, you're the average of the five people you spend most of your time with. So if you spend most of your time with that kind of culture that's all about like, just scarcity, like false advertise, let's make as much money as possible. Let's, you know, scale, grow big and get on yachts and mansions. And like, if that's you fine, but if that's not you, then don't surround yourself with those kinds of people. Don't even follow those people, right? That's not the life you want to live. So why would you, why would you consume that? We need to filter our learning, we need to have certain rules and boundaries in place to let in what we know is going to serve us and serve those who are important around us.
Gloria Chou 8:30
Yeah, I love that I recently wanted to give someone a refund, because they wanted me to write their pitch for them. And their whole entire platform was, you know, that kind of like, get rich quick, you know, pay to play. And I literally was like, thank you for booking the session. But this is really against the organic strategies that I am really about. And so it would be out of integrity for me. And the moment I said that I realized there was such power because I really grew, I think, you know, coming out of the pandemic, I think you like I never was an entrepreneur, I was kind of a pandemic entrepreneur, and scaling so quickly and not having a blueprint of what that look like. And just being bombarded with the noise of more is better. A lot of that, as you know, child of immigrants deeply ingrained in us, right? Scarcity mindset is never enough. And I had to go through complete burnout this year after having a fibroid tumor removed from a uterus, which was like a C section. And I got back on the computer three days later to work. And then I completely just like, why am I doing this, right? And I started to visit my relationship with the deep internalized capitalism that I had, and how it was all over my messaging was scarcity. And by now and so I'm really trying to do the different thing, which is to decolonize our minds. So we talked about community, you talked about how it really actually harder to do what we're doing, which is not do the get rich, quick funnel magic stuff that everyone's doing, right? What if you're just starting off? Let's say you're making soaps, and you're on Instagram, and it's so easy to see everyone else with all these followers and thinking you're never going to get there. So you're thinking maybe you throw some money at ads, or you'll pay someone. How can you stay in your lane and realize that the little incremental steps that you're building today out of integrity is actually gonna serve you way better than spending 1000s of dollars on ads?
Pat Flynn 10:03
There's a time and place for ads, right? It helps you scale a positive message. But if you have ads set up to skill, something that might not be great or, or a service that's poor, you're only, you're only gonna more quickly find that out and lose money in the process. So the first thing here is to realize that yes, there are other people doing some amazing things, and they're growing, and they have followers and subscribers, and they're making lots of money. Like, cool, that's them on their timeline, you are not them. And the comparison game is a very, very difficult game to play, because you end up doing nothing but questioning your own self worth, your own timeline, and your own products and services. And so what needs to happen is you need to, if you are going to go and find others out there who are doing things like that you need to pull inspiration from them, you need to find out what bits of them are motivating, and then even put the blinders on and not even look or even try to train yourself to not care about the fact that they have so many followers. In fact, you can flip the script to say, wow, look at how many followers they have. That means there's a huge group of people in this world who could benefit from the services that I could have and contribute as well. That can complement what this person is doing. Right? I don't ever think of this as a zero sum game. I think a lot of people approach business in this way where it's like, it's like a poker table. Right? If like you're winning chips, that means I'm probably losing chips. It's not like that. If there are winning chips, great. That means that winning chips is possible. And I can get chips too. But I have to find my own way and special lane. And so I would compare myself, this is what I do. I compare myself not to others and their timeline. I compare my timeline today to my timeline last week. How is this post better than the posts I posted last week? And am I iterating enough to learn? Am I 1% getting better every single time and trying to learn about what I can do to improve where I am at? It's the difference between old school education where it's like, hey, you got to be but Jane got an A, Jane's better than you. And that's like public knowledge in school. And then you feel shameful about that, right? Even though you tried your hardest, versus what a lot of schools are doing today. And I'm really big on education and trying to kind of move things toward this way, which is like, hey, this is where you're at. It's not ABCD, or f this is just where you're at. Now, let's try to get over here next, and what are the steps? And what can we do to encourage you to get to that next step on your own timeline based on your superpowers and what you have to offer, right? And so understanding your superpowers or the unique thing that you can bring to the table is really important. You might not know that upfront, and it will require reps to figure it out. Right? And if you post something on Instagram, or you publish a YouTube video and it fails, or doesn't get a lot of use, that's okay, you got through that rep so that you can try again and do better the next time. And if you need help, cool, there's other people who have proven that certain things have worked. Try one of those strategies either pay to get access to them pay to get access to their information or download it for free somewhere and learn try it attempted try again. I think it was MKBHD who's like a very prominent YouTuber right now in the tech space. He's all over the place. I interviewed him for the Smart Passive Income podcast. And he said something very profound. He's, he has like 15 million subscribers now on YouTube. But when he started, his first 100 videos, were for less than 100 subscribers. But he said those were the most important videos because it taught him not just like eventually what people liked or disliked, which can only come over time. But it also allowed him to get better with his systems. It allowed him to get better with just feeling more comfortable on camera and doing actual reviews for things. And he's kept all those videos up. Because it really is a is a timestamp on the beginnings of something amazing. But you can only be amazing over time, if you keep iterating and trying to better yourself. And that's, again, going back to comparing yourself to yourself before is really where the name of the game is.
Gloria Chou 13:43
Yeah, I really think of it. You know, you've seen that in high school where it's like success, and you see the tip of the iceberg, right? So few people are willing to kind of do their first 100 shitty drafts. That's really what I teach to in my my cold pitching. So we talked about your let's say you have a follower, like 100 followers on Instagram, right? Or you have a community, whatever that is for you. How can you leverage that to help grow your business in an organic way?
Pat Flynn 14:06
Yeah, I mean, this is easy, and it doesn't require anything but a little bit of time, and effort that's reach out to those individuals and have conversations with them. And when I when I share this strategy, I've literally presented this on stage. I'm like, hey, guys, it's not hard. You have maybe have 10 followers, get to know them, reach out to them. Who are they? What are their needs? What's What's the language they use? What are the biggest challenges and struggles? And then I always get pushed back like but like, what about email marketing? What about like online courses? Or should I write a book? I'm like, have you had these conversations yet? No. But like so and so is doing it this way. And they're like able to sell the have you had your conversations? Yeah, talk to people. And this is a going to allow you to immediately surpass the others who are who are in the same space as you to try and offer something to this audience because you're going to hear it directly from the people who you ultimately will serve in one way, shape or form. So the wrong question to ask is, well, what should I create to monetize my audience? The right question to ask is how can I figure out what my audience really needs help with. And how can I get them to tell me what to do? That's the beauty of this, when you do it this way, your audience essentially is the one who's gonna guide you. And again, it's a combination of what we just talked about putting yourself out there iterating, seeing what sticks, seeing what doesn't, learning your voice, having your audience learn who you are over time, and then connecting with them, send them a DM a direct a direct message and try to get in a conversation with them and begin to learn who they are. What kinds of people are you attracting, when you put yourself out there, Your vibe attracts your tribe. And this drive that you build is really important, because these are your people. And eventually, over time, even if you just focus on one person a day, I mean, this is somebody who can then become a super fan of yours, who can then support you and then help you grow the business from the inside. Yes, it's slow. No, it's not scalable. But that's what's going to be the difference today, especially as scalability becomes much easier. The AI capabilities have tools now to write copy to have messaged bots inside of Instagram, like, what's going to differ you is you putting time and effort to make a real human to human connection. And the beauty of this is especially if you're just starting out, all you need to do is find one person, help them solve one problem, take them through that process and get one result. That's one, you don't need a website. Nothing. You just need to connect with one person, help them solve one problem and get them one result. Because what happens is when you do that, it helps you with the exercise of finding that one person, just one where there are one there usually many more. Two, it helps you with the exercise of well, how do I actually help this person? What do they need? And what are their objections and what's holding them back? And I can learn about that. And I can discover ways to help them through that. And it's going to be hard. But once I figure that out, guess what I can do that again for the next person. And once I get that one result for them. Now I have two things. Number one, yes a testimonial, that I can then use to help support new people who aren't sure whether or not I can actually help people. Well, I have proof now. But now I have proof for myself, personally, because now I'm not wondering I don't know if this is going to work on our I don't know if I can help people you've already proven that you can. And that confidence is really key to put yourself out there and sell and selling a service or go out there and start writing blog posts or building that email newsletter. Now you have proof from within and in your own mind that this can work. And now you can just find people and you know how to speak the language, you know where these people exist now. So just to make it easy. Find one person. That's it, just find one.
Gloria Chou 17:27
Yeah. What are some of the questions that you would ask for? You know, let's say getting testimonials for them to refer you to other people?
Pat Flynn 17:33
Yeah. So obviously get them that result. Give them a win, make them feel great. And then as far as a testimonial, I wouldn't even ask in that manner. Like, Hey, can you give me a testimonial for what I just done for you, I would ask to get on a zoom call to just have a conversation, a post mortem, if you will. Like, hey, now that we've completed this, I just love to ask you some questions. What took you so long to finally get the courage to do this? Or to break free? Right? Like, what did you try before that didn't work? That's always great to know. Because you can see what other people are doing. That's not working for them either. Why did you decide that you wanted to finally work with me? What about me made it easier? What made you say yes, I'm curious. And that will give you some insight on? Well, it was you seem to know the language that like I was using, you need you. It seemed to know that you were going through the same thing as me, or it was nice to know that you had gone through that as well. Oh, great, nice to know. So that when I go on a website, and post my bio, I'm going to be very clear that I've gone through this before too, because I connect with people and it was proven. And then I'll ask you a question like, what were the biggest struggles or challenges that you've had while trying to transform in this way or while trying to get blank? So now we can kind of uncover and again, this is this is more of an interview, versus a testimonial. But all these things that are coming back are pieces of information that you can use to then mark it and bring new people in genuinely. And then finally say like, if somebody was on the fence of working with me, what would you tell them to help them feel safe about making the decision to work with me? And then that becomes your quote on the website. Or what have you, right? How would you recommend this to somebody who maybe isn't sure if this is right for them? And that way, you get the full story. Because testimonials on one hand, I mean, they're very they're very generic, typically, like, oh, Gloria was great. Like, I recommend her for everybody. I mean, that doesn't tell me anything, versus if you can capture the story in there. Like before, I was struggling to get noticed to anywhere. And I felt like nobody knew what I wanted. And then finally, I found you, Gloria. And now you're unlocking my doors and new opportunities are coming my way that I never thought were possible. Thank you. Right? Before after the hero's journey wrapped in there, and that's exciting. That's essentially what you're creating in that first go around with a person is that hero's journey, and the beauty of putting the spotlight on them. They are the hero, not you. They are the hero, your student, your customer, whoever it might be This is Story Brand by Donald Miller, read that book, please. When you highlight them as the hero than everybody else on the outside goes, oh my gosh, I want to go through that process too. Like, how did you do that? Who did you get help from? The guide, you are the guide, you are the Obi Wan Kenobi right in the story of Luke Skywalker, or you're the Yoda that everybody wants to have access to. So that's how I see it. And that hopefully makes it easy for a person to do business in a more approachable manner.
Gloria Chou 20:27
I feel like everything you say, has so much wisdom that each sentence can be taken apart. And we could do a whole data visualization, right? A couple of things that came up for me is, I think everyone thinks sees success as a newbie. And it's really about everything in between, right? Everything is cumulative, nothing's ever wasted. So through the process of asking for feedback, by the way, the hallmark of a beginning or like a rookie entrepreneur, is you're afraid to ask for feedback. But the more seasoned you become, you know that you're helping people. So what is what is the effect of just asking, so I can help people better, I saw that in my own journey to where I was afraid to ask for feedback. And now I'm all about asking for feedback. So that's one. Another thing is, I think people just think, you know, I'm just, if there's a visual of like a stick, right, they just want to climb the stick. But if you break the stick into little pieces and make little steps, that's going to help you get there faster. So that's what you said right there, which is using the testimonial, taking it apart, putting it putting quotes, and using that message to help everything else that you do. So I love, I love what you said about that. And I love the third thing, which is you have to believe that you're selling is actually serving. And as long as you have leaned into that energy, that you're not selling anything, and it's really a process of co creation, which is what I teach when when when people are pitching for the first time and doing PR in their own way as the energy is not please can you feature me on this magazine. Or can I be in your gift guide? It is like I have this data, I have this information. Let me know what stories you're working on. So I think the energy of co creation and collaboration is so much better than like this desperation energy of like, please, please, please. Right? Can you talk a little bit more about the energy thing? Because I love everything energy here at GCPR?
Pat Flynn 21:57
So yeah, I mean, you definitely want to go where the energy flows. And for anything that involves helping other people, you need to find out what gives that person energy and feed that, right. And so it's all about value, what value are you providing to them? So instead of, hey, use my service, the questions that you have to ask are, what do you want right now? And then if you find that there's a correlation of your energy to help them with that goal that they specifically have, then awesome, there's a match made there. But if you ask those questions, and you realize that, okay, well, you know, what, I actually might not be the best for you. That's great, too, because you could move and find somebody whose energy would match yours. And that person can go and find somebody that matches theirs. Right? It's the correlation of their goals. And what you have to offer, this is why even even when it comes down to like pitching yourself or podcasts, it's a difference between me going to you and saying, hey, like, I really want to be on your podcast. Like, I'd love to come on your show, which also is code for I want exposure for free from you, right? And so like, okay, well, what value does that add? Even though you might still have a ton of value and be able to share some amazing stories, like when you lead with me me me or take take take and never comes across the way that you want it to versus start with service giving. So the question might be like, hey, what kinds of things are most interesting to your audience as a podcaster? And then you can go oh, well, I actually have a story that completely shares that but step by step. And I'd love to come on and serve your audience in that way. Because I think I can make it easy for them to accomplish those goals that you have created this podcast for. There's nothing asking for anything in return, you are offering yourself as a service to put yourself into their work, their environment, their culture, and that always works so much better when you approach it that way. Right? I remember, in 2019, I launched a physical product called the switch pod. It's like a little tripod that my videographer and I invented. And then I interviewed a guy, his name was Glenn. And I asked him because he's really good at marketing. I was like, hey, like, how can you get on somebody's radar? If you feel like you're nobody, right? You're not in the industry. You don't have any credentials. You don't have a huge following. Like, how do you bring value to somebody? And he was like, Pat, like, I know, you have the switchboard coming out soon. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's true. He's like, if I came to if if somebody came to you, you didn't know who they were, but they said, hey, Pat. So I see you're launching the switch pod very soon. I know a friend who knows Casey Neistat, the bit number one biggest blogger in the world, like can I make it? Can I see if I can make an introduction for you? Because that might be helpful for your campaign. I don't even know, I don't care. This person is like, like a godsend to me right now, because that's exactly what I was looking for at the time, right? So that's it to provide value. You need to know what is valuable to that person in that moment at that time, right. So when it comes to like press, I would imagine that helping the writer or editor accomplish their goal of creating an amazing story that makes them look good that brings, that brings eyeballs their way would allow them to be more likely to say yes to you, enabling that to happen. Right?
Gloria Chou 25:00
Yeah.
Pat Flynn 25:01
So whenever I get on another podcast, I think about what that person's goals are in that at that time and see what could I provide for him or her, or them and so like, again, value is, is relevant. So you have to know what value means to the person who you are pitching to, before you present yourself and your services and offerings.
Gloria Chou 25:21
Exactly. And I think the reason why people, you know, especially my community feel worried about pitching is because they haven't done that work. And they know it's kind of a sales pitch. And I always say on my PR masterclass is you're not selling to the journalist or podcasts or like, they're not going to buy your stuff. Right. So how can we turn your ad copy into something that is a newsworthy story, right? So think about how you can help people like whether it's making a connection? Or maybe you're sitting on a pile of gold, because you have data from your community, right? Whether it's 10 people or not, it's not my community. So how can you be a conduit of information? What are some other tips you have from people pitching you like some of the good pitches, some of the bad pitches, just some straight up, no no's that everyone should avoid.
Pat Flynn 26:00
I mean, the pitches I receive almost every day that I immediately like they immediately go into the trash bin, are when it's like, dear host of Smart Passive Income, I have a name. And the fact that you're doing this makes it believe makes me believe that you this is not personal, right? So I want to personal reach out. In most cases, when I have somebody asked on somebody else's behalf, like an assistant or interview service, those typically go into nose as well. Because if if a person really wanted me on their show, they would ask. I would, I would say, I don't I also understand that many people are very busy, and they have people who work for them to help with those connections. But I don't think it takes that much effort to just reach out on social media and say, hey, like, I'd love to have you on the show. Because I think this this and this, what do you say, when people reach out, if they have obviously demonstrated an effort to do any research on what I've been up to, or what might be a value to me as well, then I'm more likely to entertain the idea. And of course, if it comes from a friend who I already have a relationship with, that's always best. Or some obviously, if it's somebody I already know, then it's very easy from there. But when a person's like, hey, Pat, like I wanted to introduce you to this person. And then you know, that introduction often comes with value as well, because they know that that relationship would be very important or a value to me at the same time. So those are the kinds of pitches that worked really well. And then, you know, maybe I'm afraid of saying this, but like, when people take the time to shoot, like a quick little video, I know that they are putting themselves out there. And so I can't help but at least watch that video, because they took the time to do that. And it doesn't take very long, but if it's like a 10 minute video, that obviously it's gonna, you know, that's like, wow, that's a that's a big ask of me to watch a 10 minute video, if I don't know who you are versus 30 seconds on social media, I appreciate that. It's sometimes still a no, but at least it's not just a cold email, and you're trying to make a personal connection, which is, which is a strong way to start.
Gloria Chou 27:57
And it's so funny because I as well, I get pitches all the time from these podcast, third party agencies. And it's like, I feel so bad for the person that's paying this person who's not even getting any results. And if you cannot even bother to write your own email, then why should I even have you on the show? I really think in that way, marketing and PR is changing where we've been told for decades that you need to give the keys to these madmen esque type people who are on the inside, they have the relationships. And so in order to get into their cool kids club, you have to pay for access. And guess what access and privilege are two things that people don't have. Women of color, right? So I think what we're doing is really rewriting the narrative of like, you hold your own key with the 10 followers that you have, because that 10 is gonna get to 20 to 30 to 40 and 50. So that's really kind of what I believe in and kind of what you've shared with us, too. Are there any other marketing tips from the inside where we're not giving the keys to someone else to tell our story?
Pat Flynn 28:49
Yeah, I mean, I think an important part of this is understanding the language that your target audience can respond to that's, that's often overlooked. I mean, we might even have conversations to discover the challenges and problems that our audience has. But the specific words and phrases are really key. Because again, to my point earlier, when a person understands that you know what they're going through, then they're, they're more likely to listen and to take action on what it is that you have to offer. And so really studying the words and the phrases and how a person in your target on it, and every audience is different, which is why it's important to actually study this. And this is why these conversations are key, because when you have these conversations in real time with people, you're hearing the words, you're feeling the emotion and the intonation. And when you write a piece of content, when you pitch something, there's real empathy there. Now, it's not a made up avatar, like oh, my, my ideal customer is 29 years old. She has one kid and is you know, whatever, whatever, whatever. You can't ask that person a question because they're not real. So go out and find real people and use that language back to them and to others. That's how you attract other people like them when you use that same language elsewhere. Some other strategies are to, you know, there is something to be said for, yes, creating a sense of urgency. I know that there's a lot of people who don't like doing that. But I think it's a power, but it's a power that comes with responsibility, it can be used in a great manner, to encourage people to make a decision, because really, as a marketer, that's that's your job to help people make the right decision for them. And that right decision for them might be a no, not right now. Or maybe even never. But if you keep them in limbo of law, I'm not sure if this is for me. And you know, I can always make that decision later than the ability for you to help them is never going to happen, because you need to get them to make a decision. And a way to help a person make a decision is to have either a deadline, or something that goes away after a certain time to force that decision. And that might seem manipulative, but using that for good for yes, I want you to understand this is here, and I need to push you a little bit to get these results, because I know again, that I can help you. And I've helped others too. That's the hard part is if you've not helped anybody yet, then it feels scummy. It feels manipulative. And the story in your head is, oh, I'm just my I might be like tricking people. And then if you start feeling that way, then you're not going to push hard enough to help people make that decision, you're always going to be saying things like, Well, yeah, you can bind now. But I mean, this is going to be here for a while. So it might be out later. So don't don't feel any pressure. There's a fine line there. And so we've found that the more that we drive home, the idea that, hey, this is helpful for you. We know it is we've proven it. And there's a special deal going on right now. And you know, you have to act by this date. I used to feel terrible about that, because I thought it was trickery and manipulative. But we have more people coming into the community. Now, as a result of that, they come in as a cohort. And now we can help them and serve them even more, because we have a team and resources and information that can help them. And the results speak for themselves. That's again, because we prove that these things bring results. If you had a cure for anything, it's almost now your responsibility to go out there and present them in this way to help people, it's when you are selling snake oil, that becomes a problem, right. And unfortunately, there's way too many people selling snake oil, whether they believe that snake oil will work or not. If you know that you can help people, then it's your responsibility to put it out there and to use these tactics to help and serve more people. Because especially if you have something that is life altering or life changing to them, the more that you delay that, the longer it's going to the, longer it takes for them to get that result. So it's a fine line there for sure.
Gloria Chou 32:42
I think as entrepreneurs, at least in my community, you know, they might be everyday people making candles or whatever, but they are bringing light to other people. So again, it might be very small for them. But I always say the whole industry is like a puzzle piece, right? And without your unique, little tiny little puzzle piece, you know, it's not going to be a perfect landscape. So I always encourage them to put their little puzzle piece.
Pat Flynn 33:02
I want to switch gears a candle, either something right, it's the experience behind that it's what that candle offers them. It's what it signifies or symbolizes, and how do you know what words to say around that you again. Have conversations with your customers, or those people that the, you know, this is why some brands who sell literally the same things survive, and some don't, exactly. It's because of the experiences and the other things that are around the actual item.
Gloria Chou 33:29
It's the why and this person actually is a survivor of domestic violence. And so she left her husband with three kids, and she was in a woman's shelter. And so she made these candles with affirmations to get herself through dark times. And now she's using that as a light for other people's that's really the backstory behind what she's doing. And she was able to get on TV without paying anyone pay to play. I want to switch gears a little bit more to, you know, as entrepreneurs, we're always thinking about, are we building a long term asset for our business? Or are we doing busy work? Right? That's a lot of the things that I teach, because I teach organic PR, there's a lot of pay to play PR, but so far, um, you know, I don't think you should have to give away something, whether it's a sample, so I'm all about that organic strategy. I know you're big on this too, right with YouTube, and podcasts. So can you talk a little bit more about why it's so important to look at the decisions that you make when creating content through the lens of is this going to be a long term thing? Or is this kind of more of a short term play?
Pat Flynn 34:20
Yeah, me I think I think creating content that serves both sides of the coin is great because long term content allows you to plant seeds that will continue to sprout over time, right? And it's almost like you know, if let's say, I mean, we're recording this around, you know, the holidays right now let's use a Christmas tree analogy. If you were starting a Christmas tree farm, and all you had was seeds, well you're not going to be able to sell your Christmas trees until a few years later but you got to keep planting those seeds and you plant them in stages right where you don't just have all the seeds come out and then all of a sudden you have one great year where you have all these trees and no more, no more trees after that. It's you plant like a row of trees one year and the next year you plant the next row and then the next year you plant the next row and the by year for three, you can start selling these trees because they've now grown to a point where now they're of service to people. But then after that you're you know, the next two years are already in motion in the years behind that are already in motion. And now you have this long term business because you're continually planting those seeds. And the beauty of things like YouTube, and the things like podcasting and whatnot, is a lot of the seeds that you plant will continue to germinate again, and again and again, over time, which is, which is awesome. I have content that was created in 2009-2010, that still continues to bring views and value and leads our way which is, which is incredible. But at the same time, there are also going to be things that are happening right now that are on top of people's minds, that allow you to get in front of them during the moments of things that they're thinking about, right. I know a lot of people, for example, during the pandemic, when the pandemic started, a lot of business owners were really worried about what was happening to their business, and nobody knew what was going on. So I ended up creating a live stream show on YouTube, it was only going to be a week long. But it ended up being 365 days straight. And I showed up. And those live streams, they're not as useful right now, because we're not in that same position or same environment. But to the people who showed up and the community that was built during that time, those people have still stuck with me and are still continuing to buy products because I was able to serve them in their time of need of what was going on and what was happening right then. So it's like a mix of understanding of well, what is something that I can help that will remain helpful over time. But also what is something that's happening right now that even though I might, you know, create something, and then it doesn't, you know, serve me later, it's still best served by serving my audience right now. And so that's kind of that's kind of how I think about it. And again, the only way to know what that is, is to again, have conversations, what it what is on people's minds. And this is the beauty of social media allows us to insert ourselves into these conversations in an easy way. And even like, be on the sideline and watch these conversations happen. So that we can, again, better understand here, what the challenges are, discover the language they use all together, and then experiment and create something that can serve them now and hopefully long term as well. And then as far as like long term business, I mean, that's relationships, relationships are everything. If you build relationships now with people and serve them, they'll often come for the content, but they'll stay for the community and the connection to you. And so this is where the idea of quick wins comes into play. Because quick wins are an amazing way to attract people for the now maybe it's a lead magnet or something about something that's going on right now. But then when they start to feel like oh, these are my people here, or this is my, my go to person now because they're so relatable. Now, they're going to stick around for a longer time period. So that's how I approach those kinds of things.
Gloria Chou 37:43
You know, what I love about what we just talked about is, while we were talking, I was thinking about what is the right, you know, title for this episode. And I really think we're talking about how to sell, but no strategy have we talked about is really kind of the traditional selling strategy, right? So we're telling people how to sell but everything we talk about is really from the inside out. And that's what I love about.
Pat Flynn 38:03
How to sell without selling.
Gloria Chou 38:05
Exactly. So we're about to wrap up. I mean, I could talk to you for hours. But is there anything you think is really changing about selling about marketing or community? As you know, we're kind of like three years now, since the pandemic, what has changed?
Pat Flynn 38:17
Yeah, I mean, what has really changed is, I think, I think, I think the pandemic especially has put a stamp on the things that have always been there. But maybe were hidden, because we were getting lost in a lot of other successes and strategies, and all this kind of stuff. But the pandemic really slowed a lot of people down and help people realize at the root level, what really matters. And that is connection. And this is why we at SPI we've built and I've actually like changed our entire business model recently to be all about community, we just launched something called the All Access Pass, which is like, so we've had these online courses for a while, right? And they've been selling, and we've made over $5 million dollars selling our online courses since 2017. But we're realizing that, you know, the completion rates of these courses have been dwindling. Over time we had the highest in the industry. And we still do, but there's going down. And it's because access to information is not what people need anymore. The information is freely available everywhere, really. So what needs to happen is you have access to the information but you need guidance and pathways through that information. You need somebody who's there to hold you accountable to steer you in the right direction. So what we've done is we've combined our library of workshops and courses, there's like over 18 of them. But if we were to just do that, like many traditional marketers, like hey, like we have 17 courses, like pay 1000s of dollars to get access to them. That's just like, you had a textbook. Now we're giving you 20 more like hey, here's more textbooks. Good luck go. That's not that's not of service, right? And the hard thing was like we could do that we have an audience who are made up of raving fans who buy everything we sell and we could easily make millions of dollars doing that but that would be irresponsible because right now especially since the pandemic and we launched our community, we've seen the power of bringing people together. And what happens is now, when people get access to all of our courses, they also get access to pathways through them. Meaning, they're not going to use some of them, but they know exactly which ones are right for them in this moment, and not only they're gonna go through this, on their own, they're gonna go through it with other people who are going through the same thing with them, as a community. And so this with the guidance of SPI access to office hours, those kinds of things, it was it, we are taking an upfront loss, right, instead of paying, you know, $500 for a podcasting course. We're charging, you know, $59 a month for access to all of our courses. But again, we're playing the long term game here, we're providing access to not just the content now, but the community and we are hoping in our hypothesizing that it will be so much value, that people can't help but stay in there. So that ultimately, we will actually generate more income than if we just did the one time payment up front for one course. And so everybody wins, right, and even the barriers to entry. So we're really excited because this is, I mean, SPI has been around since 2008. And this is probably the biggest change that we've ever made in the history of SPI in terms of our business model. And it is our responsibility, we're actually trying to be an agent of change in the industry as far as like what should happen in online education. I mean, there's these great courses, even like masterclass courses, with celebrities and such, but you take them, you pay for them. And in most cases, they just, they just are collecting digital dust. We don't want to be the planet fitness that just charges people and then hope nobody does anything. Like we want to be the company that represents those who step forward and actually guide people through a process, which is hard work. And it's expensive to hire the right people to do this. But this is where we're at. And this is what we're investing your time and money into. And it's really exciting.
Gloria Chou 41:56
And that's why I have so much respect for you. And I had you on the podcast because the world like you said, we don't need more marketing magicians funnel magic people, we don't need more content, right? Like you said, we need a way to make them feel truly supported through connection to validate that they're not alone on this scary journey, whether it be podcasting YouTubing or doing PR. And so I love that so much that that, you know, unlike so many people in the industry, get rich quick and kind of just leave you. You're really thinking about the long game. And like you said, you're even taking a loss now because you really believe that with that community, you have a lot of responsibility. And I love that you're so intentional about it. So thank you so much for being you. We need a lot more people like you.
Pat Flynn 42:36
I appreciate you.
Gloria Chou 42:37
So what's the next step that people can find out about whether it's all access or anything else that that you're building right now?
Pat Flynn 42:42
Oh I will, thank you. And again, I'm not here to promote my stuff. But I if you're interested in it, to see kind of the positioning we're taking in the market and how we're presenting ourselves smartpassiveincome.com/allaccess, and it's really exciting. In fact, we're in December right now at the time of this recording. And we had a goal in December, to have 300 people come in as founding members into this brand new program. And we hit that goal in two days. So we're really excited and more and more people are getting. So again just to verify and validate that, this is what people are looking for. And they don't want just more content, they want the experience and to be challenged and to find others that are like them. Because inherently that's what we are. We're human beings. We, we work best in our happiest in groups of people who are like us. And that's what we're trying to create. So again, smartpassiveincome.com/allaccess or just hit me up on twitter or instagram @PatFlynn, I love to say hi. And again Gloria, thanks for having me today. And best of luck to you and all your students. And thank you for the work that you're doing, especially for those who are, you know, born in a way that already sets them behind others, for people like you to step forward to help advance them is just, I mean, we need more people like you as well. So, so thank you.
Gloria Chou 44:00
Well, together, we are rewriting the narrative of what entrepreneurship looks like. Okay, thank you. Hey, small business hero. Did you know that you can get featured for free on outlets like Forbes, The New York Times, Marie Claire Pop Sugar, and so many more, even if you're not yet launched? Or if you don't have any connection? That's right. That's why I invite you to watch my PR Secrets masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods 1000s of bootstrapping small businesses used to have their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought after industry expert. Now if you want to land your first press feature, get on a podcast, secure a VIP speaking gig or just reach out to that very intimidating editor. This class will show you exactly how to do it. Register now at Gloria Chou pr.com/masterclass. That's Gloria Chou c-h-o-u pr.com/masterclass. So you can get featured in 30 days without spending a penny on ads or agencies. Best of all, this is completely free. So get in there and let's get you featured.