Episode 20: How to Combat Sexism and Racism Through Copywriting with Feminist Copywriter Kelly Diels
Are you being unintentionally biased, prejudiced, ableist, sexist, or even racist in your copy without knowing it?
Feminist educator, writer, and coach Kelly Diels is sharing a perspective in this episode that you might not have heard before.
Kelly Diels is a feminist educator, writer, and coach. She specializes in feminist marketing for culture-makers. She’s here to raise awareness about how the business-as-usual formulas we learn everywhere actually reproduce oppression. She develops and teaches alternate, feminist marketing tools to help us do it differently (and better).
If you are writing copy for your emails, sales page, or anything else, you need to know the mistakes you could be making that get in the way of your message and values.
There are words in our everyday vocabulary that are exclusionary that we don't even know about. In this episode, Kelly is highlighting some of those words, showing you how they are problematic, and teaching you how to replace them so that you can create a culture of inclusion.
Your words matter. Listen in to find out how to use them to reflect your values and shape the future.
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
What it means to be a feminist copywriter
Creating institutional justice for the future
Why this work is so important in the world of copywriting
Words to look out for and avoid
Thinking more carefully about the language you choose
Looking at how you present yourself
The power of earned authority
How to structure your message
Why you should start your message with a shared value rather than a pain point
You are a culture-maker. You get to choose if you are going to perpetuate a cultural message or create a new one. What does that mean? You and I have the power to change the future.
For more information on this and to learn more from Kelly, be sure to connect with her through her website, social media, and email newsletter - all linked below!
If you want to get free organic press features, get on to top podcasts and build relationships with editors at your dream outlets, join me and hundreds of small business owners in the PR starter pack at http://www.prstarterpack.com.
Resources Mentioned:
Kelly’s Website: https://www.kellydiels.com
Connect with Kelly on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kellydielswriter
Join SLL @ kellydiels.com/subscribe
Additional Resources:
Join the Small Biz PR Pros FB group
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Transcript
Speaker1: [00:00:00] Now, this episode is going to be different than any other episode because we get really personal, funny and sharing the tidbits of our lives. As me and my partner, Matteo, we interview each other on this podcast. So if you ever wanted to know all the funny stories, the behind the scene things and just to get to know me a little bit more, then this episode is for you. Hey, friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message, because let's be honest, we simply cannot make the impact. We're here to make, by hiding behind the scenes. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. Hey, everyone, this is a really special episode because I wanted to do a special Valentine's Day episode with my one and only, my partner, Mateo, so I have him on the podcast with me asking me all sorts of questions. So if you're in for PR marketing tips, this episode is going to be very different. We're going to get personal. We're going to share some really funny stories, insider things. So buckle your seatbelts. Get ready. Welcome, Mateo.
Speaker2: [00:01:29] Hi. Hi, everyone.
Speaker1: [00:01:31] Why don't you give everyone a little intro about yourself?
Speaker2: [00:01:33] Sure. Well, my name is Mateo. As Gloria said, I've known this crazy person for what is it? Three and a half years now, a year after I moved to New York. I'm originally Italian, so before then I spend most of my life in Italy, and then I started, you know, traveling for work and for study. I got my MBA in Barcelona and then I was between Germany, UK and then I moved to the U.S. for Penguin Random House, which is the biggest trade publisher on the planet. And I do. I'm a VP of marketing there.
Speaker1: [00:02:05] Awesome. All right. So we're just going to dive into it. My God, I'm going to be so embarrassed after this episode. But OK, so my first question to you is, what is something we're that I do during my routine that most people would be shocked to know?
Speaker2: [00:02:18] Well, maybe, maybe you found a pattern in the time that lawyer schedules or meetings, which is usually, you know, 11 noon the earliest. And so she's definitely not a morning person. I got to say she's a night owl, so she she works till very late, but in the morning is impossible to get her off bed. And so for me, it's always like getting up earlier, walking the dog, putting a coffee, and then, you know, she shows up at 11:00 after then.
Speaker1: [00:02:49] Well, that's good. So like, you're welcome for giving you the morning free, right?
Speaker2: [00:02:53] Yeah, sure. Except then I have to leave the room every time she has a call.
Speaker1: [00:02:57] Ok, all right. So OK, you go next. You ask me another.
Speaker2: [00:03:00] Ok, so if you can change one thing about your business, what would it be?
Speaker1: [00:03:05] Oh, just one thing, OK? Obviously, there's so many things I want to change and improve on. I guess if there's one immediate thing I would love to change is just knowing like what the right team configuration is. I think it's so difficult, like as an entrepreneur, to build a team and knowing like who to hire next. And this has been the single most challenging thing for me because, you know, I made a lot of mistakes time, money, resources, and I still am figuring it out. And it's been a very humbling experience, knowing my weaknesses as a leader and just how much I still have to go in terms of stepping into that, that role of the leader that I know I'm capable of and I can see what I'm just not quite there yet. So that's one thing I would change is just like knowing how to be that leader and build that team that I know can allow me to do everything. I want my business. It's a good one. Ok, so my question for you is we share an office. Unfortunately, you're like, right there. I mean, it's New York. How do you know when I'm like not having a good day or it's just like time to leave me alone? Like, Is it something I do? Is it do I fidget? Or how can you tell?
Speaker2: [00:04:17] Well, you're definitely very focused. Gloria is like when she starts, it's impossible to distract her to the point that it's an inside thing. We have like, like, pull her away from her desk just to distract her. But because she's so focused, especially when she has a bad day, you can really, you cannot really like get her attention. So she's like, snappy and, you know, she talks back and it's just like, you know, she's not in the mood for any type of conversation outside of work. So I'm like, OK, I'm going to leave her alone and do my own thing. Whether it's cooking, walk into dog. And I'm like, OK, she she doesn't want to talk. She's she's having a day,
Speaker1: [00:04:53] Which is which is so like, not my thing because I'm such an extrovert. I talk all the time. So when I'm silent, you know, something's going on. Mm hmm. All right. Ok.
Speaker2: [00:05:02] You go ask, what's one part of being your own boss that makes you wish you worked for someone else? What don't you like about being your own boss?
Speaker1: [00:05:10] I have to pay for all my office supplies.
Speaker2: [00:05:14] And sometimes she asks me to supply something
Speaker1: [00:05:18] That's a surface level, you know, being a boss, being your own boss is nice and all. But man, like the problems don't go away just because your day ends, right? It's with you. It's it's on your mind 24/7. It's one thing I wish I could do is just turn my brain off. I'm always thinking about how I can improve my business, how I can serve my audience, what content I want to do. Who do I want to meet? And it's just it's really difficult. And this is a different way of living from when I was working in government.
Speaker2: [00:05:44] So fair enough.
Speaker1: [00:05:47] Ok, so I have it all. Yes. Ok, so my question to you is, what's the most surprising thing about you witnessing me building my business? Because, you know, obviously, like when we met, it was kind of just beginning like, you know, my community and everything I was doing consulting. But what's really surprised you about kind of building the business during the pandemic?
Speaker2: [00:06:08] Well, it's a story that I tell everyone, you know, who maybe meet you for the first time and ask me what you do. And I've been really. I've been remarkably surprised positively in a positive way by how you build your business over the pandemic, how you pivot it because all the times we started living in and, you know, very resilient a very, you know, I mean, you've always had that in you, but it was definitely it definitely came out during the pandemic because you you had to adapt through the times and you were like, you know, we were living in the same place sharing the desk and just like seeing you building and growing and getting more clients and always, that's maybe the most surprising thing. Like you always trying to figure out what was the next thing, how to improve yourself, always like, you know, trying to evolve and not being stuck. This is my offering. This is my product. I'm going to get clients that say, you're always like trying to get to the next thing. And I think that's not only surprising, but as I said, also remarkable. So I'm very impressed. Thank you, honey.
Speaker1: [00:07:10] It's exhausting.
Speaker2: [00:07:11] Sometimes I didn't choose it for you.
Speaker1: [00:07:14] So, OK, so your turn to ask.
Speaker2: [00:07:16] Yes, that's a good one. What is the what is the funniest story about working at home together?
Speaker1: [00:07:23] Oh, OK, so one time I was on my coaching call, I'm in a business mastermind with other online businesses, and we have these calls only twice a month with everyone, with the coach, with everyone in the program is the only time I see them and we share an office and there's also a closet in this in this office. And so while I was on the call, Mateo comes home, he starts changing. He starts taking off his pants, getting into sweatpants, and everybody on the call is like, Oh my god, Gloria’s partner is literally changing. Is he going to get naked? Like, what's going on? And I just turn around and he's like, in his boxers, just walking around, I'm like, Dude, what the hell? It was, It was funny. But that's yeah, that's that's what happened when we share a space.
Speaker2: [00:08:08] So. And when you date an Italian,
Speaker1: [00:08:10] Yeah, basically a nudist. Ok. My question is, how do you think my attitudes about my business change like this year as opposed to maybe last year, it was kind of just getting started?
Speaker2: [00:08:23] Well, I think it goes back to what you said earlier. You know, like you literally went from being a one person team on your own building everything with with its like pros and cons like you're you're in full control of what you can do. You can do at the same time. So you get to a point where if you want to scale and grow your business, you need some help. You can do it all and you're very good at some things and less good at others. Not just to glory like everyone. Yeah. And so I really saw you from being like one person team and building your business by yourself to needing that help. And like again, to your earlier point, like how to build a team, lead a team motivated team and everyone being aligned to, you know, like work towards the same goal. So that is definitely like a step that everybody, every entrepreneur, I bet, goes through. And it's definitely a defining moment. And you're doing, you're doing it great. So, you know, you're basically less focused on, you know, creating and selling the business and more like having the support you need to bring it to the next level.
Speaker1: [00:09:28] I just wish I knew exactly what to do next.
Speaker2: [00:09:32] Yeah, who does? I mean, you can like, learn and listen and read as much as you want. But at the end of the day, everyone is different and you have to like, lean in and what you what your best at and also let go of like the things that you can't. You're going to be perfect. So yeah. Is it my turn? Yes. So what is your favorite client story?
Speaker1: [00:09:51] Oh my god, I have so many amazing people in the PR Starter Pack, especially amazing female founders. But if I if I had to pick one that is really inspiring is, you know, this this woman, Liana, she is a cancer survivor, and she was like watching all my free content and following me for like a year. And she just she couldn't commit to joining my program. And so she was, you know, doing all the work. And then she finally after like a year, jumped in and immediately she was able to get herself into like the top retailers she got on to podcast. And when I did a Facebook Live with her, she's like, You know, I really don't know why I waited for so long because like, I have so much experience and story to share that I can't believe I waited this long. And it's not so much about the media features for her, but it's about her feeling truly confident to share her story in a way that can inspire other people using her voice. And I could even tell from even before and after her like getting on podcasts and magazines like how her tone of voice was different, how she was more vocal, how she was more confident. So just seeing that actual physical change is just something that lights me up like every day when I think about it. So my question is, what is something that I do? That's super annoying
Speaker2: [00:11:12] As we live together, as a couple? Well, you all going to know that Gloria is very OCD in some aspects, not all of them, but she cannot tolerate like, I guess, dirt. It's not that I tolerate dirt, obviously, but you know, it's a constant vacuuming every single day.
Speaker1: [00:11:31] Our dog sheds like she does.
Speaker2: [00:11:33] She does, to be fair. But like, for example, the trash bins, they have to be empty even if they're half full, right? Like, throw this, throw that, then I'm like, Why do you need to like, do that now? She she has this like or when we get delivery from Amazon, like she needs to throw out the boxes immediately. I mean, of course, they're in the way, but the next time you go out, you can throw them away immediately. So they have to go out doesn't want anything in that is extra. That doesn't belong in the space, in the house, in the apartment for any longer.
Speaker1: [00:12:05] I hate packaging. Ok, right. So my question is, what is something you're way better than me at?
Speaker2: [00:12:12] Wait, so another question from you straight away? Yeah, OK, I'm just going to like, you know, go by what I do like in the house I. No way better, cook. So I'm the cook at home, we have a great division of labor, so cooking is on my end and I generally enjoy it. The other day, I cook the most amazing Chinese eggplants that you know, never done before, so approved by a Chinese native. What else are you? Take care of our dog? So now he loves me a lot more than she loves you. I'm a much better listener. You know, I tend to focus my attention on whatever the other person is saying versus her, like being added. Exactly. Precisely ADD, but she's a lot better than me in many other aspects. For example, being an entrepreneur and being like a successful business owner. So, you know, as I said earlier, like, you can't have it all, you're not perfect and we're very balanced. So that's the best part about your question. So what are videos on social media that you're obsessed watching that I have nothing to do with PR or female founders, so nothing to do with your business.
Speaker1: [00:13:18] Ok, so I'm obsessed with watching like terrible cooking videos where people just butch Italian food because I just love his reaction, like swearing in Italian. When people, there's this woman who basically puts raw pasta from the box, like into a container, and she puts like salts and whole garlic, clorox aura. And she's just like sprinkles it on and layers it and then and then puts it in the oven. And that's that's how she cooks her food. And it's so vile, especially for someone who, like, is with an Italian that I just love. I just love watching videos of Americans just like messing up Italian food and then showing it to him and and just getting him pissed off right away. And just his reactions are just so funny.
Speaker2: [00:14:02] Also, because like, there's a way to cook stuff like when I cook the Chinese eggplants, I went on different website websites I found like the original Chinese. I mean, allegedly, but at least it was like it. Look legit. I'm not going to improvise and try to do like garlic Chinese eggplants with my recipe, so I don't understand why people butcher the Italian.
Speaker1: [00:14:23] Ok, I have another question is what was one thing about America that shocked you when when you moved here?
Speaker2: [00:14:29] Well, I mean, it's still a shock to me, but I can go on for a long time. I guess the health care system, it's something that keeps boggling my mind. I posted this quote the other day on Twitter. I have to pull it up like I can remember off the top of my head. But, you know, being like a leading nation in this world and having such a such a system that is geared towards profit and it doesn't take care of its citizens, like as a as a human right, I mean, I come from from Europe, which is like way more. There's a much better welfare, but I think there are there are needs like basic needs that you cannot not provide to your citizens. Health care is one. Education is another one. And so navigating and luckily, you know, I'm healthy, but navigating American healthcare is really something that, you know, traumatized me and still does. So, yeah, OK.
Speaker1: [00:15:22] But what did you say when you first went to Walmart for the first time?
Speaker2: [00:15:26] Oh, yeah, that's another thing. I mean, we can have another long conversation about gun rights, but I was shocked to see that there was a section of the store dedicated to guns. And you know, you could there was a line and you could, you know, you could like, buy them, I mean, I guess without any permit. So. The other thing about Walmart was the size of things, the sheer size of like the products that you could buy,
Speaker1: [00:15:51] Like the thirty jars
Speaker2: [00:15:52] Of mayonnaise. Yeah, I'm like, Why do you need 30 jars of mayonnaise? And you're like, You're eating? This says a lot about the eating habits of this country, but
Speaker1: [00:16:01] Maybe things just last longer. So if you buy 30, you're set for the whole year, baby.
Speaker2: [00:16:05] Sure. But that tells a lot about what's inside of them. I mean, that's true, too. That's true. Always remember you're like, You are what you eat.
Speaker1: [00:16:13] So, OK, so now I'm going to ask you, what is our favorite show that we've been binge watching throughout the pandemic?
Speaker2: [00:16:19] Another question for me, then straight away. Ok, I'm happy to answer.
Speaker1: [00:16:23] Oh, you're so sad. Sorry, C eight, I'm ADD. This was your
Speaker2: [00:16:28] Question. Ok, see? I mean, we kind of. It's a double question. Well, it's a question for both. So what is the show that we binge watch and love the most during the pandemic and we still do? Is it that one? Is it the one that I'm thinking to do?
Speaker1: [00:16:42] Wait, wait, wait. Doo doo doo doo doo.
Speaker2: [00:16:45] I bought her this at some point. So if you haven't guessed already. It's the office. Ok, maybe people don't know.
Speaker1: [00:17:02] We love the office. And lately we've been binge watching on succession. We love succession.
Speaker2: [00:17:07] Yeah, it's a really good show. I mean, we we had to binge watch it, binge watch it because we got COVID over. Can I say this over over the Christmas break? So we're like stuck at home in quarantine. You know, it's something that I've been wanting to watch. She watched the first season, but she was happy to watch it again and we plowed through.
Speaker1: [00:17:24] Yeah, I think it's your right now, for sure.
Speaker2: [00:17:28] So what is your if you if you could have any podcast host or guest, who would you have Oprah?
Speaker1: [00:17:35] Duh.
Speaker2: [00:17:36] Ok, why elaborate?
Speaker1: [00:17:38] Oh my God, I just I haven't followed her for so long. I love her podcast. She's just her energy. She's just the OG. And oh my god, I would. I would just love to be in a room with her and actually just worked with a client. I wrote. I did a press release for her. She's a textile artist and her art was hanging in Oprah's house, and she was invited to the Oprah experience. And I was like. You hugged her, so I'm like just one association away from meeting her, you know, just one
Speaker2: [00:18:06] One level of one degree of separation.
Speaker1: [00:18:09] Ok, I'll ask you another question what is something? I spent way too much money on that. You're just like, Why?
Speaker2: [00:18:15] What is it? Oh, definitely skin skin products, skin care products that she's trying to like bring me into as well. But but but I'm becoming like, diligent and good at that, but it took her a while. What else she loves? She has a favorite store. I mean, she hasn't bought stuff there for a while, but i€. As soon as she sees the store of i€, she goes in and she does not come out of the store empty handed and coconut water. I mean, what is the brand that you love?
Speaker1: [00:18:44] Harmless harvest.
Speaker2: [00:18:45] I mean, it's delicious expensive, but our fridge is always full of coconut water. Yeah.
Speaker1: [00:18:49] So hey, you you. I don't drink and you guys spend like nineteen dollars on a cocktail. So what's $11?
Speaker2: [00:18:55] Fair enough. Fair enough. Not all right. But am I right? Yeah. Ok, what's the answer?
Speaker1: [00:19:01] So we're getting to the end of this episode. I just want to do like a real quickie casual one. So I hope I really hope this one was entertaining for you. If you would like to have Mateo back on the show. Please comment, rate review and subscribe. Yeah. And let me know if you enjoy this episode and what other questions we should ask, is there another question that you want to ask me and put me on the spot on while we have this episode going?
Speaker2: [00:19:25] Yes. Can it be business related or it has to be? Sure. So if there's one, if there's one thing that you could choose to achieve this year with your business, whether it's, you know, economic or financial, or whether it's like a specific industry or like a specific client or yeah, sector that you haven't explored or even just like, you know, to your point of like growing the team, getting to a place of, you know. Yeah. Of of of like, you know that that, you know, you can move on that, you know, sky's the limit. Like, there's nothing that can prevent you from getting there. Well, on the magic wand, what can you what would you pick?
Speaker1: [00:20:09] Oh, my magic one would be getting all of the people on my Facebook and PR certified community onto any speaking panel stage that they want, because I really think now that, you know, like we're getting back into real life, you know, I think we really miss the in-person kind of events I know I do. And I think being able to help them feel like they can pitch themselves and get on to those panels, something I'm doing for myself as well. That would just make me so happy because it's there's nothing like that in-person connection, you know?
Speaker2: [00:20:40] And I'm sure you can do it, I mean, this one is able to put people on the most amazing outlets without them even having a business, so I'm sure it's definitely doable, attainable for you. And it's a good goal. I like it.
Speaker1: [00:20:56] What is your goal this year for yourself?
Speaker2: [00:20:59] It's a year of change for me. I mean, we started, we started with a few housekeeping. What do you call it like, you know, logistic health practices like she can I say it? Yeah, she had a big surgery that, you know, I was really happy. We were really happy to get it done with. I had a couple of surgeries myself. I just got my Lasik eye surgery i.e. I need. I've been, I've been. I've been complacent on a bunch of different areas in my life for too long and my, for example, my my, my work permit, my visa is coming up. So I need to figure out a way to live in this country. But I have her, you know, we're getting married in case, like, nobody knew, but we've been engaged for a long time, so
Speaker1: [00:21:42] I better behave.
Speaker2: [00:21:45] It's no news, so I feel it's it's a year of change and I want to explore areas that whether it's business or music, for example, that I haven't been able to explore or I haven't put enough effort behind to explore enough in the past. So, yeah, a lot of new stuff this year
Speaker1: [00:22:02] You're being humble. Mateo is also a self-taught DJ, and he bought a DJ set for his birthday.
Speaker2: [00:22:08] Well, self-taught. I mean, I have friends who taught me do. So, for example, tonight is the night because it's like cold and snowing to practice.
Speaker1: [00:22:16] Yeah, it's a storm. Literally everything shut down. So he's going to start, start playing music, and it's really strange. But I find that electronic music is actually conducive to focusing OK, which is so weird to so many people.
Speaker2: [00:22:30] I brought her into that. She was jokes that, like before meeting me, it was a completely different genre. She was listening to
Speaker1: [00:22:39] One hundred percent.
Speaker2: [00:22:39] But now what? But now she can't. She can't avoid it, and she loves it. Hey, listen, I've been I've been going down rabbit hole music, rabbit holes all my life, and this is the one that I'm going through now.
Speaker1: [00:22:53] So you introduce me to like the techno house electronic and I introduce you to like classic soul like R&B.
Speaker2: [00:22:59] Today we were listening to like soulful music for the most part, and it was beautiful. Yeah, you always have to learn from each other. There you go.
Speaker1: [00:23:06] Now, on that note, happy Valentine's Day. I hope we have all day.
Speaker2: [00:23:12] Sorry, we're not.
Speaker1: [00:23:13] Very. Yeah, we actually have a Valentine's Day where we're like, we will not do anything on Valentine's Day. We will not give each other a gift on Valentine's Day or subscribe to society's forcing us to buy into the capitalistic ways. But because you
Speaker2: [00:23:25] Also have to celebrate love every single day of the year, not just one day.
Speaker1: [00:23:30] True. So on that note, love yourself. Love everyone else you remember you are enough.
Speaker2: [00:23:35] I love meeting everyone. Bye!.
Speaker1: [00:23:42] Hey, my friends, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the Small Business PR podcast. Now if you are ready for this year to be the year that you land, press and stop hiding behind the scenes, I want you to join our Facebook group, the number one place for small businesses looking to go from unknown to being seen, heard and valued. This is a special one of a kind space for small but mighty business owners at every stage of their PR journey, and you can come join us at www.getfeaturednow.com you might meet a podcast host, you might be able to get on to a podcast, meet a business bestie and you'll be able to see me where I go live in it every single Friday. I cannot wait to
[00:24:20] Meet you in the group and I look forward to you joining us.
Speaker1: [00:00:00] Are you being unintentionally biased or prejudiced? Or maybe ablest or sexist or even racist in your copy without knowing it? This episode, my friends, is for you if you are writing copy, if you need to make a sales page or writing emails to connect with your audience, you want to make sure that you are not making these mistakes so that you genuinely reflect the values that you stand for as a small business owner. Hey, friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message, because let's be honest, we simply cannot make the impact. We're here to make, by hiding behind the scenes. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. What's up, everyone, I am so excited for this episode of the Small Business PR podcast. Now I have someone very special. Her name is Kelly Deals. She is a feminist educator, a marketing expert, a copywriting expert, and you are going to hear a perspective that is super interesting and maybe radical to some. But that is why I'm having her here on the show today. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker2: [00:01:31] Thanks for inviting me. I'm so happy to be here with you.
Speaker1: [00:01:34] So the first question, I think, is what does it mean to be a feminist marketing expert or copywriter? What does that mean?
Speaker2: [00:01:43] It means that I do all my work through the lens of justice. I trained like most of us in all the usual places. I learned how to build businesses and took marketing trainings and copywriting training in all the usual places. But they never really sat well with me because I had to swallow a bunch of my principles in order to do it the way that I was trained. And initially I did that, but I couldn't sort of stay with it because it would be in too much dissonance. And what I sort of had some epiphanies as the mother of black children around why that was the case and one of the ways that it became really, really clear to me that we were doing something broken in our business practices and our marketing practices was when a big female lifestyle empowerment brand who was always talking about, you know, being a game changer and changing the world sent an email out in the wake of Eric Garner killers not being not being indicted and said the email said, Do you want to transform your pain at injustice into power? Click here. And I was like, really outraged, right about his killers not being indicted, and I was like, Yes, I want to transform my pain into power. I want to know how to do something about this. This could easily have happened to my children.
Speaker2: [00:03:08] This is an injustice like, we have to change this. And so I clicked through feeling really hopeful because I had the backdrop of she always markets herself as a game changer and a world changer. So let me see what she has to offer. And it was a white woman and it clicked through to a video and she was having her face powdered. She was bouncing along to Meghan Trainor's all about that bass, and then she started talking about how someone wrote into her and a coworker was a problem. How do you handle a negative coworker? How to change your mindset set? And so it was like a prerecorded video about how to change your mindset when people are negative in your environment. But the email was basically leveraging an outrage, leveraging a massive injustice, leveraging Black Death for clicks. You know how she got me there? And I just like, had this epiphany. I was like, Is this the video she would offer if it could happen to her family? If, is this the video that she would offer if it could be her partner? And it was just like I had this like moment of total clarity where all these things that I had been upset about, all the lack of consent in our copywriting, all the making people feel like they were broken was like, Oh my gosh, it's not just that I'm uncomfortable with it, it's that we are leveraging privilege and injustice to get people to do what we want.
Speaker2: [00:04:35] And when we're doing that, we are perpetuating patriarchy. We are perpetuating white supremacy. We are leveraging, you know, positions of like oppressive identities in order to create advantage. And I was like, this isn't just about the optics and the messaging and putting a nice, pretty pink bow on things. We have to look at our business practices and our selling practices, institutional racism, institutional sexism. All of the institutions are made up of tiny practices, and we, the business owners, are making practices. We are building institutions and we might think that we're just a small business right now. But every huge business started out as a small business. And when we're looking at those businesses as institutions, they have made decisions about business practices and labor practices, and we are making those same decisions right now. So what we decide to do in a very tiny way with our business practices are selling practices or copywriting practices, creates the institutions of the future. So I want to create different kinds of institutions. I want to create institutional justice. And so I'm going to look at my business practices and my copywriting practices and figure out how I can create that opportunity and that outcome.
Speaker1: [00:05:48] Oh, Kelly, I just got to take a beat there because that was
Speaker2: [00:05:52] So much to
Speaker1: [00:05:54] Unpack, it was powerful and you as a white woman using your platform and privilege to speak out on this where a lot of people don't want you, and I think I actually know who you're talking about. We won't name any names, but it's it's there's so much to unpack. But first things first is you talk about copywriting, and I think when a lot of people think about oppression, they don't really think about in terms of copywriting. So why are you focused on like like what is it about copywriting at its most powerful? It can do what at its most egregious, what can it do?
Speaker2: [00:06:22] So at its most egregious, it can make people feel shame and it can leverage like it can leverage conditions of scarcity to get people to act against their own self-interest, to act against their interests so they can make life altering decisions. So sales practices and copywriting practices can get us to sign up for like a nineteen thousand dollar package at 20 percent interest that could actually financially devastate us so we can make really bad decisions. So that's those are some of the mistakes. These can be life altering decisions. Now, I'm not sweating that much this the copywriting for like a 14 dollar pair of earrings or in nineteen dollars your book because those are not life altering decisions. What I am looking at is when we're making really big purchases or we're doing things around our internal beliefs, when people like, when they internalize really negative beliefs about who they are and start thinking that they're broken, that is how people stay on free, right? And so those are the ways that we can actually create outcomes of injustice as business owners. So why I focus on copywriting in particular is any copywriting program that you join, any course, any book is going to teach you to leverage people's pain and agitate it and heighten it and then provide them with a solution so that they will buy to get out of that pain.
Speaker2: [00:07:49] So what we're doing then when we're doing that, let's say with people with marginalized identities, with women, with people of color, with disabled folks, with people who have intersecting identities, what we're doing then when we're doing that is leveraging historical and present scarcity in order to create advantage for us. So one of my clients recommended a coach to me and I looked at something that she wrote and she wrote, Women plus scarcity equals patriarchy, so as copywriters. So think about that if women don't have resources that are equal, so women not having resources is patriarchy. Yes. And then what happens if we, as copywriters were taught to create artificial scarcity in order to get people to do what we want them to do? So if we're doing that to women who historically and presently have a significant wealth gap and who don't have the resources that men in our culture do, what are we doing? We are acting like patriarchs to create more scarcity for women, to extract resources from people who don't have as many resources as other people.
Speaker2: [00:09:02] Now there's nothing wrong with getting someone to buy something. But leveraging scarcity against people who are marginalized to get them to do something is leveraging privilege to get people to buy your stuff. So I want to look at like the micro decisions and the things that we're doing to create sales. We don't have to create fake scarcity to get someone to buy things right. We can make something completely inspirational and aspirational and delicious, and we can we can use shared values and shared visions and really positive states where we get people into power and then they make a deliberate decision instead of creating a situation where they are subconsciously buying from a fear of scarcity which like re marginalizes them. So those are the things I look at is like, what are the things that we're doing in copywriting and what's the outcome when we use them against women of color? What's the outcome when we use them against queer folks? What's the outcome? What does that do to them psychically? What does that do to them financially? And what systems are we using to create resources for ourselves? We can absolutely make money without subconsciously triggering people into decisions.
Speaker1: [00:10:14] Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think it's easy when you first start in the online world to leverage all of the pro marketing tactics that we've been told, right? All the funnels, all the clickbait things. And I myself was guilty of this as well. So I'm constantly trying to do better, right? And so instead of the pain, it's like, what is the opportunity? What is this? What is a confidence building? What is the inspiration? Another thing that people don't think about a lot is the words that we use. So I think it was Tarzan that said something like, don't say some don't say the word like crippling debt or something like that. Like, what are some of the things that we should look out for that? We don't even think about that could be very oppressive.
Speaker2: [00:10:50] Yeah, so the reason we don't use something like a phrase that crippling debt is because it's ablest. So we don't want to use words like, OK, I was blind to something we don't want to say. That's crazy because there's, you know, a slur in there. So we want to think about those words. We also want to think about the gender language that we use. So if I am holding, let's say, a group space and I mean for it to be anyone who has been socialized as a girl or a woman who is grappling with the effects of misogyny in their life that might actually not just be a woman, that might also be a non-binary person who was assigned female at birth. So if I say this space is for women, but I actually want to invite non-binary femmes into the group that I need to say it, I need to. Even though it's like long copy to say this group is for anyone who is grappling with the experience of misogyny. It's not as snappy as saying this is for women, but what we have to do is use all the words so we want to. Actually, we're trained to be short and snappy and use short copy. But if we want to be inclusive, we've got to use all the words. We've got to invite all the people we want to invite in because if we don't name them, they won't think they're welcome. That's how that's how oppression works, right? I will walk into a room and in a business meeting and start counting. How many women are in this room, right? If I'm not invited in? I'm not necessarily going to feel welcome, so I need to be explicitly invited in. So one of the things we can do is copywriters as you use all the words.
Speaker1: [00:12:20] Yeah, 100 percent. I never even thought about things like blind and crippling because I use that with those words every single day. So thank you for pointing that out.
Speaker2: [00:12:29] Yeah. Another one is lame. I'm honestly, it's been like two years. I'm still trying to take crazy out of my vocabulary and replace it with like bananas. Ridiculous, like. And there's a great words, but it takes time.
Speaker1: [00:12:42] Yeah. So I love how you broke it down to, you know, oppression. It obviously it starts with the microaggressions and it builds up to systems and words do have power, right? They can convince someone to make a life altering decision. They can make you rich or they can disable you. So I love that you tackle it from a copywriting perspective. Now what are some of the things that you know you talked about, like using words like crazy and scarcity? What are some of the other things that we should just say no to that we don't even know that we're, we're being, you know, pitched to all day.
Speaker2: [00:13:11] I think one of the things we want to do is look at the images because images are telling a story. We want to look at the images that we're choosing to go with our copy. And so sometimes I'm looking at someone's feed and I'll like, go in and I'll like, scroll down. Let's say it's like a white woman entrepreneur, like a famous white woman entrepreneur who teaches people how to be entrepreneurs. I'll scroll down and like, count. Like, How many rows do I have to get to before I see a woman of color? How many rows do I need to scroll down before I see a fat woman or a woman in a wheelchair? Like how many rules? And like, if it's all them all pictures of them, maybe I'm not going to be as difficult about it because like, if your feed is all you. That's a whole different thing. You are who you are. But if you're using stock footage and stock photos and all you use are thin white women, like why you're making an explicit decision there. Right. So we want to look at that. And it's not just about race, it's about body size. Are we only showing pictures of thin women? It's about ability. Are we only showing pictures of able-bodied people? We want to look at the images that we're choosing because they tell a story too. And what's the culture that we want to live in? I want to live in a culture of inclusion, so I want to work with people who show me that they're into someone who's and sometimes we think that doing that is going to cost us money.
Speaker2: [00:14:25] That writing copy without leveraging scarcity and without overriding consent means we're not going to make money or deviating from the status quo where we only show thin white women as the ideal means we're not going to make money, right? That's the fear. Like, if you double down on justice, you're not going to make money. I think we can look at Rihanna to see that that's not true. Rihanna's Fenty line, when you know people walk the catwalk for Savage, you know, are people with one leg instead of two people in wheelchairs, fat women, thin women, women, women who've had mastectomies like women of color, white women, people at varying ends of the skin tone spectrum like the palest model imaginable. And the woman was the most like shiny, beautiful, dark skin. So she has everyone and she is killing it, right? Victoria's Secrets just went out of business and declared bankruptcy because they're not relevant, right? Rihanna is irrelevant so we can make a ton of money by doubling down on what we actually believe, and that even in copywriting, I teach people, instead of leading with pain and agitating the pain at what we do is we lead with values. What's the shared vision? Start off by like writing a love letter, what's the vision? And then tell people how to get it instead of painting them into making a decision based in scarcity and subconscious triggers.
Speaker1: [00:15:54] Yeah, one hundred percent and it's about building that future version of themselves and having them to really step into that place before they're ready because that's where success comes from, is is believing in that future vision of yourself.
Speaker2: [00:16:06] Well, even like Steve Jobs, who is like, perhaps not the not emblematic of justice, but Steve Jobs said about the iPhone and the iPad, like he wanted to build something that people didn't know what they wanted, but he knew that they needed. So sometimes that's the space we're holding. It's like even though they might not be able to hold it for themselves, we're going to hold that space for them. Here's the vision we can move into it together.
Speaker1: [00:16:29] Yeah, 100 percent. So I mean, you know, for a lot of women who are listening, obviously, you told us about the scarcity the ableism don't use. You know, what about patriarchy? So that's so we talked about racism. We talked what is it about the current business models or things that we see that are just flat out just vestiges of patriarchy and it's not going anywhere anytime soon? But what are some of the things that we can start to be attuned to?
Speaker2: [00:16:51] So I mean, the things that we can be attuned to is, are we trying to create authority over other women to get them to do what we want? And so what I mean by that is lots of times we'll see women who we really respect and admire, you know, taking pictures of themselves in luxury, in luxury backdrops with Louis Vuitton purses and all these things. And what is happening when we as humans see those signals of wealth, then what we assume subconsciously on a subconscious level is this person a leader and I should obey them. So we need to look at our own like the way that we present ourselves and say, Am I leveraging symbols of wealth and leisure to create authority? Or am I showing up with substance? And my work and my contribution and the product, right? So we need to look at ourselves and what story we're putting out there. The other thing we need to do is we need to look at are we manufacturing authority by doing things like that? Or are we creating earned authority by saying, here's the thing I made. Here's why it's valuable. Here's how the benefit it can create in our lives. So we're taught to do the shortcut, which is display authority. Take pictures of yourself with famous people. Get a photo shoot in front of the Eiffel Tower, show yourself on the beach, show yourself with Gucci clothes and like, I love some Gucci, right? But like, it's not going to be part of my marketing or brand imagery. So look at your own way that you're presenting yourself. We're trained to present ourselves to manufacture fake authority, but where our power lies and where our culture making opportunity lies is, can we create authority that is earned?
Speaker1: [00:18:34] Boom. Say it again, Kelly.
Speaker2: [00:18:36] Yes. Authority is the way forward.
Speaker1: [00:18:39] Yes. And that is why what I teach is like earned media like do not pay 10 thousand five hundred dollars to be in Yahoo Finance. Top ten movers and shakers like, no, you do have value and you do not need to be with the VIP Cool Kids Club to get featured. So I so resonate with that. And by the way, to this day, I don't own a single Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Chanel, Dior. None of it.
Speaker2: [00:19:03] And I don't actually have a problem with any of that, you know, like, do what you want to do with your resources. I'm just saying it's not a brand strategy to display. Yeah, me
Speaker1: [00:19:11] Neither. But. So I mean, that's not really my taste either. But I do have a question because we see a lot of people in the world that's like success looks like this. And for them, there needs to be a visualization of success because let's be honest, we're visual creatures, right? So if they are doing the Gucci bags and the nails and the fake jets, what is the way they can still show that they're successful but not fall into those pitfalls or traps?
Speaker2: [00:19:36] Well, we could think about what's the outcome that we're trying to create or what's the feeling we're trying to create and we can create a visual language about that around that so you could think about. I want to create a feeling of hope and abundance for people, and you can think like what things make people feel abundant and delicious. And it could be like mangoes, maybe like a close up picture of you eating a mango and like looking super happy. Or maybe a picture of you hugging a bunch of people like, especially in this moment in time, right? Like, maybe you'll be surrounded by a group of women who are smiling and happy. Maybe those are ways that you could connect with what people want. Maybe your people want to belong so you could show them images of belonging, and it doesn't involve showing a Louis Vuitton bag.
Speaker1: [00:20:24] Yeah, I love that.
Speaker2: [00:20:25] Now you have to create our own visual language. Basically, what things to you tell the story you're trying to sell, tell without leveraging wealth?
Speaker1: [00:20:34] Yeah, one hundred percent. So for people who are just starting out, they want to not maybe not leverage wealth, but they want to show that they're legitimate business, right? So they want to attract customers. Maybe they make a body butter. So how can they get started to? Think about marketing, you know, in a way that's going to attract the ideal audience that maybe has a budget to spend, maybe let's say their body butter is more expensive, but then they want to adhere to their values. How do they walk that line?
Speaker2: [00:20:58] I mean, that's where we show up with the story of the thing, right? Like if your body butter is made of like single source, sustainable ingredients, and that's why it costs 50 percent more. Or it's made of this special magic fruit found in this special jungle. And it does amazing things. And scientists tell us the story that give us the actual history and work, because that's actually the thing that will make us pay more right. If you tell me how different and special it is, I will pay more for it. If you tell me, like no pandas were harmed in the making of this body butter where everyone else is harming pandas, well, I'm going to buy the panda pro body butter. So tell us why it's special.
Speaker1: [00:21:43] I love that. Do you have so? So tell us how it's special, of course, with pitching as well always to stick out. What about what are some of the other hacks or actionable strategies that they can do, whether it's caption writing or images or Instagram?
Speaker2: [00:21:56] So I have a caption writing tactic that I call the five step messaging model, and there's actual research that says this kind of approach works. So traditional copywriting tells us we start with pain, we stroke the pain and really agitated, and then we provide a solution so that a person can buy, right? And what I do is something different. Instead, you start with the value, what's the shared value? And there's the center for community change actually did some political testing on messages similar to this and found that it converted better than the messages started with pain. So a message was started that starts with pain would be like, Look at this starving orphan. Don't you want to help the starving orphan? You terrible like, indulgent western person you write like, so that's a pain based message. But what you could do instead is say something like nobody wants a child to go to bed hungry. That's a shared value. We share a value. Nobody wants that right. Unfortunately, Republican lawmakers are putting this bill forward. That means there will be no more school lunch programs available and kids are going to come to school hungry and they're going to go to bed hungry. And so what you do is so first you say, here's the shared value. We have a shared value. Then you say there's a villain. So step one is shared values. Step two is name the villain and make sure it's an actual villain and it's not your client. So traditional copywriting will be like your bro fat, stupid and ugly. You are the problem. My copywriting feminist copywriting says actually, the problem is there's a cultural problem. There's an actual villain. And guess what? It's not you. You have nothing to be ashamed of.
Speaker2: [00:23:29] Right? So step one of the five step messaging model is shared values. Step two is name the villain, and the villain is not your client. Name an actual villain. Step three is show how it undermines that shared value. So and then so that's when you're like that law undermines your value if you like. And that's not OK. And then step four is tell them how you do it differently. So over here at such and such a body butter, 10 percent of all our proceeds go towards the school lunch program. That's how we do it differently. And then step five is reiterate the shared value. And so that's how together we can make sure that no kids go hungry. One body butter at a time, like, I'm mixing all the things right, but step one is name the value. Step two is named the villain. Step three is tell us how it under that villain undermines our shared values. Step four is tell us how you or your product do it differently. Step five is reiterate the shared value and ask people to take an action. So if you just follow that five step messaging while you can expand it or contract it like an accordion, it could be an Instagram post. That's five sentences. It could be a sales page that's five hundred words or five pages. You could expand, or it could be a whole medium post. It could be a blog post. You can expand and contract each of those elements as you need to. But if you just follow that, it's really easy. It's a prompt. Just do one two three four five. Do those things fill in the blanks and you got it?
Speaker1: [00:24:57] I love that so much. I mean, you're such a wealth of knowledge, and I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. But I listen to a podcast that you were on and you talked about capitalism. And I think us being on the online business world, so much of it is about six figure seven figure. It's so much no space. And I found that I was getting burnt out, setting these goals for myself. That had no meaning. I don't think about my happiness would exponentially increase right from figure to figure. And you said something about capitalism and how it means a hoarding of money as opposed to let it flow in circulation. So can you talk to my audience a little bit about what that means, like the actual energy of money?
Speaker2: [00:25:36] Sure. So first, I want to start off by saying that I want people who have been historically and presently underestimated to gather resources, so I want the people who are less. Theme to this podcast to have permission to go and make money and use and leverage those resources to create flourishing lives for themselves, to create good livelihoods for the people who work with them and to like, put those resources in the community and create the world we want. So please do not interpret anything I say going forward as don't make money. Please go ahead and make money. Absolutely 100 percent. And here's what I think about the problem that we're in right now. To me, capitalism is different than business. We across time, as humans have always exchanged goods, whether it was goods for shells, goods for gold coins, goods for goods. We have always exchanged goods, so business and trade has always existed. What is new is like advanced industrial, western supremacist, colonial capitalism that is historically new and what happens to it? Here's my description of how what happens. Capitalism is when currency, which is meant to be in flow. A current is meant to be in flow when currency gets dammed up and hoarded and it doesn't flow through the community.
Speaker2: [00:26:54] So I would give an example of like Amazon, Amazon and Jeff Bezos are example of currency getting dammed up and creating like exhorts. One person is hoarding it by like appropriating it by, by exploiting people, right? So the currency stops with Jeff Bezos and his yacht. It doesn't keep flowing through the community where people who are in business, the baker buys goods, makes bakes bread, sells it to someone else who keeps resources and flow, and everyone's doing well. So what we want is not to dam up resources. We want to keep them in flow. We want to make sure that we have enough to personally flourish. Right. I do not want us to only have enough to get by. I want us to flourish and keep resources and flow. So there's nothing wrong with doing business together. What's wrong with is building businesses that exploit that, appropriate that leverage privilege in order to create advantage and then accumulate. We don't want to accumulate more than we need. We want to flourish and keep resources and flow. So that's when we we hire community members. We invest in community infrastructure. Right. I want us to create excess so we can do those things, but we've got to keep the resources flowing.
Speaker1: [00:28:14] Wow, that is so powerful and it's so logical and common sense. But we forget that.
Speaker2: [00:28:19] Well, we're here to flourish, right, so that I'm not here for us to like, wear hair shirts and suffer and not have enough and something comes along and we don't have any resources to meet the need. We have to be realistic about the world we're in, right. We are navigating a world where the social safety net is not adequate, where people in our lives who we thought would be there for us might not be there for us. So we actually need to have resources to fill in those gaps. So I don't want us to under earn. I don't want us to not have savings accounts because we don't want to be like accumulating capital. And I think if you're making less than a million dollars take home salary, you probably don't even need to worry about this. But there comes a point where, like, if you're just accumulating, you need to think about what your contribution here. How do we keep currency and flow? And only two percent of women entrepreneurs ever crossed that million dollar gross. Right, so this is not really a huge worry for us. But what I want us to do is break that threshold so that we can keep our resources and flow right.
Speaker1: [00:29:25] And it's also I read somewhere that female like women are starting more businesses that directly enable the local community to be prosperous more than more than men.
Speaker2: [00:29:34] So that is historically always true. So first of all, the group in the United States that starts business is more than any other group is black women. So first of all, that's like a huge economic engine in our culture. And then second of all, historically across cultures, if you want a community to do well, you put money in the hands of women because they invest in a roof. They invest in their children's education. They invest in the community. That is just historically the case when you put direct transfers in the hands of men. They start second families, but women will invest in the community, will make sure that their cousins and aunties are taken care of. And almost all of the women entrepreneurs that I work with there who are doing well, they're also putting a cousin through university. They're also making sure their moms rent is paid right. That's what historically and generationally women do with money.
Speaker1: [00:30:27] That's incredible. I'm I'm so inspired and empowered listening. Like, you know, there are so many of these forces, right? Every day, it seems like it's just such an oppressive system that we're never going to be able to dismantle. But then through talking to you and the work that everyday heroes that we really can do little things to say no to oppression, say no to to to the patriarchy, saying say, I'm not going to keep perpetuating this, you know, racist ideology. So I really appreciate you being here and talking to me about that. And I love the way you say the word flow. I think flow is such an amazing word, and it might be one of my words for this year. So you just kind of you just inspired us with that. Now we're getting to the top of the hour. Is there anything right now? We're recording this in Q1, one where we live in very interesting times. You said a lot about so many things. Is there something that you want our listeners to just leave with is one thing that they remember from this episode.
Speaker2: [00:31:20] I want them to know that they are culture makers like if we all disappeared tomorrow, our culture, including this culture of oppression that we're navigating, would disappear. It does not exist without us. So although some of that conditioning flows through us, although we're born into something and we didn't choose it and we inherit it, we are remaking it every day. Every conversation, every decision we make, we are making a decision to let that culture flow through us or to create a new one. So whether we like it or not, we are always culture makers. Sometimes we're cosigning the existing culture and sometimes we're creating a new one. So what I want us to know is when we're making a tiny decision about, am I going to lead with values or am I going to lead with shame? We are making a culture making decision, so I want you to know that even if you think you have nothing, you are culture making and what you do has impact. And so I just want us to be deliberate culture makers and decide the kind of world we want to live in and make the policy choices that line that up.
Speaker1: [00:32:21] Yes, thank you so much for reminding us of our own personal power.
Speaker2: [00:32:25] Thank you, Gloria, for having me on and thank you, everyone for listening.
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