Episode 78: How Generational Trauma and Scarcity Impacts Entrepreneurship with Veronica Romney
Our business and our lives are manifestations of our inner landscape.
We may not realize this at first. However, what we experience inside ourselves may hold us back from changing our narratives as entrepreneurs.
Reaching the full potential of all our entrepreneurial activities and PR efforts means addressing those things that personally make us feel deeply uncomfortable.
In my case, these internal hindrances came in the form of generational trauma and a scarcity mindset.
The generational trauma and scarcity I experienced pushed me to take action with my business, but it came with several struggles.
Unconsciously, I may have fallen into the trap of toxic capitalism.
Even worse, it reflected on how I operated as a leader of my business and as an entrepreneur to my customers.
Fortunately, when I started the healing process, my view towards my business—the messaging, the way I lead my team, and setting goals—all changed for the better.
That’s not to say that everything is now perfect in my business or for me.
Instead, this personal breakthrough affirms that the change begins with you.
More importantly, you can overcome these barriers and create a new reality for yourself, which will eventually impact your business.
By sharing my struggles and being vulnerable, it’s my hope that you can connect the dots, think about your story, and take the right action.
In this intimate and specially-designed episode, I sat down with Veronica Romney and reflected on my journey and openly discussed how my struggles truly impact my business and mission.
“I've never deviated from my mission because I know in order to get the results that you're desperately wanting, we do have to have the conversation of ‘Hey, hi, it's me, I'm the problem. It's me.’ Nothing will bring you to your knees, and humility, as does entrepreneurship, parenting, or any kind of relationship. That reminder is always there in these particular arenas of life.”
-Veronica Romney
Veronica Romney works with online entrepreneurs struggling to get their teams dialed in. She has been in the online marketing world since 2008, most recently working behind-the-scenes as a speaker, trainer, Director, and Chief of Staff for brands such as Tony Robbins, Dean Graziosi, Pete Vargas, and BossBabe. Veronica is the host of the Rainmaker Podcast.
Join us in this intimate and inspiring episode as I open up about how generational trauma and scarcity can impact entrepreneurship. It’s only by first acknowledging our inner landscape that we can change our narratives as small business heroes.
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
What generational trauma and scarcity really look like
Appreciation of innovative ways to heal generational trauma and scarcity
Addressing the toxic and cancerous forms of capitalism
The need to be more self-aware as a leader and entrepreneur
Why you should elevate humanity in your business
The mark of a true leader-entrepreneur
If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachou.com/masterclass.
Resources Mentioned:
Join Gloria Chou's PR Community: Small Biz Pros: By Gloria Chou
Know more about Veronica Romney: https://www.veronicaromney.com
Additional Resources:
Join the Small Biz PR Pros FB group
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Here’s a glance at this episode…
[00:16] Our business and our life is really a manifestation of our inner landscape. And until we address those things that are uncomfortable, we'll never be able to rewrite the narrative for ourselves.
[14:52] Our toxic cancerous form of capitalism and scaling has come to a point where it needs to be addressed.
[19:32] A lot of times we tend to think like, Oh, my personal issues like, I don't need to solve that business, business business. But when you are an entrepreneur, it literally is a physical and financial manifestation of all of your childhood scarcities playing out in real life.
[22:02] If you're still operating from that mindset of scarcity of doing everything yourself, you're not going to grow.
[32:20] If you can really learn more about how to be a leader, more than anything, it will pay so many dividends throughout all areas of your life.
[41:18] Doing this work of understanding your value and elevating your humanity, you're able to pass that on to your team members too. But it all starts with you.
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Gloria Chou 00:00
Whoa, this was truly hard to record. I thought about many ways that I could record this episode. And the best way for me to say it is that the reason why I'm sharing this episode, where I talk about my own generational trauma is that I think our business and our life is really a manifestation of our inner landscape. And until we address those things that are uncomfortable, we'll never be able to rewrite the narrative for ourselves. So this is an episode that I did on my friend Veronica Romney's Rainmaker Podcast. And I thought it was important enough to share with you. And so I hope that through sharing my own struggles, and very deeply personal things about my relationship with my mother, that I can encourage you to connect the dots and think about ways where your stories and your identities kept you stuck, and how you might be able to break through those barriers so that you can create a new reality for yourself. Thank you for always welcoming me to be my most authentic self, and showing up exactly how I am being the messy, complex individuals that we all are.
Gloria Chou 01:03
Hey, friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message. So on this podcast,f I will share with you the untraditional, yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast.
Veronica Romney 01:31
Okay Rainmaker family. Listen to this, I showed up 30 minutes for the recording of this podcast. That's how excited I am for this recording. It is a conversation one I have never had on the podcast, too. It's actually a conversation I don't have very often even in my personal or professional circles because it's a heavy one. So just as a general warning, we're going to talk about trauma. We're going to talk about generational trauma. We're going to talk about scarcity. We're going to talk about wounds. We're going to talk about some stuff. And if that is upsetting to you or you are in a vulnerable position or state currently, presently, this isn't maybe not a good idea, by all means I respectfully ask you to like just listen to your gut on this. But if this is something that has also been itching you like it has for me, then buckle up because I have the perfect guest to have this conversation, who is bringing her most authentic and vulnerable self, and I am so grateful for it.
Veronica Romney 02:31
So this Gloria Chou, who is like a dream of dreams. We had a chance to work together here and there in the past. We were basically DM-ing on Instagram as one does about where we are today from the last time we spoke and getting each other up to speed and and then we started getting a little bit deeper. And I invited you to the podcast and you said yes. And so why don't you formally introduce yourself to the audience. And then we'll just dive right in.
Gloria Chou 02:57
So I'm gonna...thank you so much, by the way. You got me a little teary eye with that introduction. My name is Gloria. I live in Brooklyn. I am a daughter of Chinese immigrants. Single mother. I'm not a single mother. But my mom was. And I used to be a US diplomat, I abandoned that comfortable career where I had a 25-year career trajectory with a pension and went and basically restarted my life. And during COVID, I built a small business PR program called the PR Starter Pack from cold calling thousandss of newsrooms and cracking the code on how do I get that person to say 'yes,' who might be an editor or who might be a blogger with no PR experience. I've never worked in a PR agency. I never worked in a marketing agency. And now I'm just sharing what I learned to help all of the other scrappy bootstrapping, mainly women of color founders, that they can also get seen in the media. I'll tell you my why really quick. More than just PR and growing your business is that we know that black women start businesses more than any other demographic. We don't see that reflected in the media. We don't see, you know, the stories of BIPOC founders, people who are more diverse, and we cannot rewrite the narrative if we don't do the sacred work of pitching ourselves and our story. So that's really my why and why I do what I do.
Veronica Romney 04:09
Gosh, so you are a daughter of immigrants. I, too, am the eldest child and daughter of two Cuban immigrants who literally fled communism. And they're entrepreneurs. Right. So they came to this country and started an airconditioning company in South Florida, because it's a necessity, and it doesn't require four years of formal education and financing they didn't have. And here we are. And I am now the product of that. So this is a conversation that I know is, I was telling this even before we pushed, we turn on the mic, that this conversation I already know for a fact is going to prompt me to like look internally. So, why don't you take us to the beginning? At what point or was there a moment that the realization of that generational trauma came like obnoxiously present in your life? Like what happened if you don't mind sharing?
Gloria Chou 05:01
Well, I'll tell you what happened with my business that made me realize maybe I need to slow down a little bit. So you know, as online entrepreneurs, we're always looking for the next goalpost six figure months, six, figure launch, seven, whatever it is, right? It's never enough. I think part of it is our internalized capitalism, where the more money we make, the more worthy we are as human. I was taught that at a young age where my mother literally said to me when I was deeply unhappy in the State Department, when I was a diplomat, she says, You have a great job. It's okay that you're depressed. Just keep your head down and say Yes, sir. Right. They're paying you. So that was kind of her trauma, because when my father passed away, when I was three, she was a widow at 29 in a new country, far thousands of miles removed from her family. That was her thing, right? And her saying that was like, how do I survive? and through her building her own business and rebuilding her life? She knew that financial freedom was the only way she could survive. So she put that on to me, right? So I really believe that to the more is always better. So I lived my life, my entire life, always through that lens of more is better. And I was never satiated. I was never satisfied. Obviously, on one hand, that's good, right? Because it keeps us going. Yeah.
Gloria Chou 06:09
But I had this massive tumor that grew in my in my uterus during COVID while I was building my business. So like last year, in 2022, I had a surgery to remove an 11-centimeter fibroid tumor, which is a size of a baby's head, basically, that was growing rapidly in my uterus. I don't know where it came from. And I had to have an open abdominal C-section, basically, major major surgery. On day three, I got back on the computer with tape on my bikini line wearing bandages. Four weeks later, I pulled off my first six-figure launch. And I went into a complete mental meltdown. I only thought... I literally couldn't get up. I had to be horizontal, and every little thing, would just send me into like a state of fatigue, where I couldn't literally stand up. I was crying in the middle of like, just talking to my friends. And I realized that, you know, I've always had stress blinking all the other things, but I was experiencing like mental and physical burnout. So I started to look back at why is it that I've been making more money than I ever thought possible. I finally pulled off a six figure launch. But I am deeply unhappy. And so through reading a lot of literature about energies, because I really do believe everything is energy, the womb, your sacral chakra controls money, and I was operating from a source of scarcity. Right? Not always like realizing, always thinking more is better, not really focused on attracting the right people, but just anyone. And I realized that that tumor that had rapidly grown in my uterus in my Sacral Chakra was literally quite literally a symbol of stuck energy. Because I was operating my business from a port of how much money can I save. And I remember when I was working with you, I was like, I want to hire this one person who can do this, this and this and this and this. And that's not operating through a form of abundance or trust. That's literally just trying to get the best deal, right? And a lot of stereotypes about like Asians wanting the best deal. It's a really a generational trauma thing too, because you have a society that went from mainly agrarian and imperialist in one generation. Now, they have Tesla's and Porsches. So that's a whole like country wide thing. So that was me.
Gloria Chou 08:11
That was I started to read a lot of literature about psychosomatic things, and how the body literally keeps a score. And so I spent all of last year deconstructing my narrative and relationship with money. It's still a lifelong process. I still revert back to scarcity often. The other day, I was, I had a conversation with my husband, because we were wedding planning. And he literally sat me down and was like, Listen, I don't want to go through with this wedding if you're gonna keep treating it like a business transaction. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he's like, you know, our wedding planner said that we lacked a sort of romanticism and you are treating it like such a business thing.
Veronica Romney 08:48
Transactional?
Gloria Chou 08:49
Yep. And worry, we are going to be taken advantage of where we are going to spend more than we want, and you're not going to be able to get the best deal. And that was my scarcity, like creeping back up again. Right. So it comes back. It's not like I've solved it. But I have definitely learned the way I approach my business was through a place of scarcity and I spent all of last year trying to rewrite that working with an ethical copywriter Brittany McBean to take apart my messaging quite literally because we've all been brainwashed from the funnel bros right? You can get this and this and this and this and this for $50,000 for $599. Like no. So I stopped doing all of that. No funnel stalking. I actually started to reveal the price of my program at the beginning of the webinar now instead of the end and through doing all the work I'm much closer to leaning into the business that prioritizes my intuition and my health and my own knowing rather than falling somewhat someone else's moving stick. That's like you're never enough. More is better.
Veronica Romney 09:43
Okay, I already know. Feels are coming guys. I can already feel some stuff coming up for me, because I had a similar situation happened to me not in my entrepreneurial journey yet, which there's plenty of those just I have the picture of like the newborn in my hands with a laptop at like the kitchen counter. Actually, even when I was in corporate this happened because I was told that women don't come back from maternity leaves. They become stay-at-home moms. And it was almost like issued as a challenge. And so instead of taking eight weeks or 12 weeks, I think I came back and six weeks after having my first son. And that was really stupid. I'll be very honest with you. And then I also started my business, and then had a second baby while still working my full-time corporate job, which again, also extremely stupid. And this is why I want to talk to you about because I, in some regards, and this is you can hear me struggling with this literally on camera, right? In some regards are some elements of my personality, that I love. Like I love the grit and the work ethic that my Cuban parents have instilled in me from like, the womb. Like I came out guns ablazing, like, 'Let's go!' like, 'Bring it on world!' you know. And I was told the same thing. You know, my parents told me you want to change your stars, you want to change your destiny? Get educated and not just like B's and C's. No, no get educated. So like I graduated high school with 64 college credits. I finished college in three years, about four years, I was working at 20. I graduated high school at 17. Like I've never not overdone it, or been an overachiever. And now as a 35- year old woman, mother, wife, I'm constantly over functioning. So here we are. So like, I can I see patterns. It's not unclear to me. I'm aware of where some of my strengths have turned into sabotage, self sabotage. And then at the same time, I wrestle with it too, because I appreciate those attributes that I possess, and that I have been given by my parent. I appreciate my grit, my resourcefulness, my pragmatism, like I all of those things. And so keeping them in healthy balance, or having enough discipline to use them with restraint, so it doesn't overtake me but helps me achieve. That's so hard. It's so hard. I don't know, if you want to speak to that, like teach me your ways. Where have you come to with that, to have an appreciation for what it is, while still recognizing it could turn into weakness, if not controlled?
Gloria Chou 12:16
I still am very early on my journey. I will say that psychedelics have helped. I hope it's okay to say that. I think we need to normalize the talk around psychedelicassisted therapy and drugs, because you know, it's okay to soothe yourself with alcohol, but it's not. So I've done a lot of work around that. And I just think it's the way that we approach business as women. It's a man's world. The way that capitalism makes us work 40 hours, so that all of our time is, you know, spent producing. And also as, you know, children of immigrants, of how we are forced to, especially women, women of immigrants, how we always want to put other people's care taking like as a priority. And somehow like as daughters we're responsible for taking care of other people even before we were born, right? Like, you always hear like, Oh, well, if you have a daughter, like they'll be more caring for other people. So it's all of those generational narratives that have been deeply ingrained in us. So this is really hard work. It's not work that I'm going to be able to do fully in my lifetime, but I think that fibroid and my body is screaming at me. It was like, there's a blockage here. There's something that's not communicating, right, me being completely not connected to my feminine, maybe losing my libido and not being able to fully even experiencing orgasm, which I know is not uncommon for successful women. It all connects. It all makes so much sense. Right?
Veronica Romney 13:33
Yeah. No, it does make sense. And yes in fact, I've shared this on social media. And so I have no issues sharing it here. But like I ,this year, in particular, I've wanted to prioritize my health and all of quadrants that is health- mental health, spiritual health, physical health, sexual health. So I'm actually a part of an intimacy mastermind this year, and I'm very excited about it. There's so many things. But it's true. God, we we can fixate on like to your point, especially as a business owner, and I've talked about this to where I've struggled in my parenting because of my parenting. It feels like Groundhog Day, every day. Like we have the same argument about dinner and the same argument about going to bed on time. But in business, it's this gamification where okay, you had a six-figure launch, what about a seven-figure launch? What about you know, not just a six-figure year but a seven- figure year, an eight-figure year and it's never enough? It's insatiable. You're...it's never enough when not managed, or again, the restraint. You see, you know, really successful personalities and personal brands on the internet. Just shut it all down. As we saw this week, we just saw. Yep. I don't know if you had thoughts on that or not. But you want to speak to that.
Gloria Chou 14:48
Yeah. I think COVID kind of accelerated that. But I think our toxic cancerous form of capitalism and scaling has come to a point where it needs to be addressed. And I think with really famous entrepreneurs who have reached all the high highs in, you know, really, really short amount of time, like, somehow that's not aligned with our natural physiology, like biology. And, you know, but the industry tells you, like, you're doing great. Keep going. Keep going. It's okay, but you're not getting regular periods, or it's okay, that, you know, all of those things. So, you know, obviously, for me, it's that plus my mother wound, I've only lived with my mom, probably for eight years of my entire life, because she had to work. She was abroad working, and I had to live with other people. And so it's so deep, you know, and so it was always like, I am the only one that's going to be able to take care of myself. So I never learned how to truly receive. And when we talk about orgasms and libido and the feminine magic, it's really receiving, being able to receive. And so I think psychedelics has really helped me open that up to be able to receive a little bit more. You know, I did an incredible psychedelic assisted sound therapy that included intuitive movement. And it just completely changed my life. Not the first time I've done psychedelics, but this one was a seven hour journey with 30 different shamanic instruments from an expert, sound engineer. And it was absolutely, like I was crying, there's a couple in the corner in their 60s that are crying. And for the first time in my entire life, I went past forgiveness for my mom, because I thought my whole work was, you have to forgive her. You have to forgive. I felt compassion in my bones. Imagining a woman in a new country, holding me in her arms as a baby and seeing the dead body of the love of her life. Never felt that way ever. I always, rationally thought that I needed to forgive right? It was like, this makes sense. I need you ever. But to feel it in my bones, what it's like to have compassion for her. It was the first time in 37 years I've ever felt that. I never felt closeness with her in that way. We're not very close in the sense that we don't talk very much, you know. But um, yeah, I'm still processing it. It's wild. And I don't want to get teary. But yeah, it has allowed me to receive in a way where I just kind of completely blocked off my compassion for her in my life. And it opened up those channels. And at the same time, which is even more life changing is for the first time in my life, I had this yearning to become a mother. And Veronica, we're not like besties, or anything, although I feel like one day we will. Know that I am anti-kid. Like I even told my husband on our first date, I said, I hope you don't want kids because that is an absolute deal breaker for me.
Veronica Romney 14:48
Not for me.
Gloria Chou 15:13
And so, you know, I'm 37, never wanted to get my eggs frozen orever even thought about it. And so through that journey of healing, my mother wound, a new thing opened up, right. And that came flooding in. So this is all very recent, by the way. This is like, it's raw. It's very raw. It just happened like two weeks ago. I still haven't told like some of my friends to be honest. But this is something that I'm like, trying to wrestle with was like, this maternal energy that I never had, I just kind of closed my life off to. I was like, nope, not for me. And now it's coming back because of I was able to.
Veronica Romney 18:09
Because of the healing. Because of the different lens in which you view motherhood, in particular, your own mother. I'm curious, because I think I'm in awe of you is your this is how you say it, and we're saying it. But I can't even imagine the depths of the work that has had to have occurred for you to even be on this podcast right now saying it in the manner that in which you're saying it. Let's just say I'm just going to give a moment of honor, saluting an enormous amount of hard work.
Veronica Romney 18:43
Here's the question I want to ask you, because you're so self aware. And you are in it. You're like I can tell you're just in this process of self-discovery. And you're excited about it, in spite of the hard, you know, the labor that comes with this process. How has this impacted how you've shown up as a leader to your team and to your team members or to your clients too? But like, how has this exploration, self discovery, self awareness, changed you as a leader? And that's a big ask because again, I'm asking you to get on a balcony perspective and to look at you your present self versus your past self. But I'm just really curious if you've seen patterns or drawn lines, in your own growth with how you've shown up as a leader for others.
Gloria Chou 19:28
Yeah, that's really good. Because a lot of times we tend to think like, Oh, my personal issues like, I don't need to solve that business, business business. But when you are an entrepreneur, it literally is a physical and financial manifestation of all of your childhood scarcities playing out in real life, right? You can hide that a little bit in corporate but entrepreneurship when you are the one making all the decisions, it is truly a reflection of where you are. So I started my business during COVID. And I scaled very quickly. We were able to because no one's really doing PR in this way. Like, traditionally we've been told you got to pay some white dude with the connections and his fancy people. So the whole like BIPOC and women of color, like all these entrepreneurs were cut off, like didn't have access. It was like you got to pay or you don't get seen in media. And so that's what we're trying to rewrite. So there's such a need for it, and we grew really fast. But as you know, you can only grow as much as you grow your team, right? And if you don't do the work of knowing how to lead with vision, and trust, instead of scarcity, which comes out in micromanaging, constantly checking, double checking, messaging people at all hours, disempowering people. You're never going to be able to grow your business. I remember when I came to work with you, I was still in the throes of it. I was like, Why do I have five people working for me? I'm so burnt out, and I'm doing all the work. And when you knew the answer to that, I just had to walk through that path and myself. It's because I didn't trust. I didn't know how to delegate. I didn't. I saw it as a very transactional, instead of like, 'How can I onboard this person where in 60 days, I might not even see an ROI?' And that's what you told me on the call, which was scary for me, right? Because you see things in a transactional way you want you want your return right away. So that has really changed the way I do business and the way that I hire for the long term. So I no longer make decisions of what is the cheapest route? How much can I pile on one person to do everything and squeeze the most out of them? Right? Because I did try that and they left. And then I was burnt out and I just doing that process and learning the hard way. It's like oh, people are leaving, maybe it's something about me. Like, why is it that I have seven people working for me, I'm doing all the work. It's a reflection of me. So doing all the work and working with you, I now started to realize like it actually is way more costly to make a decision from the lens of like, what's the cheapest thing because you're actually slowing your growth. Right. So now I'm like, who's the best person that I can hire because this is where I want to go? Now, I know this is a privilege thing to say not everyone in business, when you're starting out can afford to hire that. But when you get to a point, because hustle only takes you so far, right? If you get past, you know, six figures, you want to get to the seven figures, and have more freedom in your life. And then if you're still operating from that mindset of scarcity of doing everything yourself, you're not going to grow. So literally like an open fist and a closed fist. So the masculine energy is like, take action solve this thing. Do. Do. Do. Every time I had a problem, I had a whole action plan on how I was going to solve it. That's very masculine thing, right? Like he was going, but I never once took time to like, sit and be like, What is this showing me? What is this about me? Otherwise, I'm going to keep perpetuating the pattern, right? So I think that's what the feminine has taught me that I'm so disconnected from is how do I open my fist a little bit more and let things flow ? Whether it's my money, whether it's maybe hiring someone and not getting the ROI for 60 days. But through that process, I'm going to learn way more about hiring. I'm not gonna get it right all the time, right. And so through doing my business through a closed fist, which led to scarcity, hiring people, then leaving me doing everything on my own anyways, to letting letting that flow a little bit more, it has really changed the way I do business. I actually had a second six-figure launch during an economic downturn. And I told my team, I said, I don't even want to do launch numbers, but you know how you have like your board of like, good, better best. Like, you're not like, I don't even care about these numbers anymore. Because like, the world isn't in a weird place. I was like, I just want to show up and serve these people. I want you to know that you're a winner in my book. And we actually surpassed our numbers. So you know, the the universe shows you in really funny tricky ways. You just have to listen.
Veronica Romney 23:29
Well. And I would imagine that when you took the emphasis off the financial markers of what was deemed successful for you and the team, I would imagine that the team also showed up a little bit differently than they have in the past too because I can't even imagine the collective relief. Because I just feel like you're right. It's an interesting time in which we are doing business. It's an interesting industry, this online space for many reasons. And there's burnout, and workplace trauma, and human collateral all over the place. And so to work with a leader who values my contribution, because how it serves people, not how much it pays the person is radically different than I think how a lot of people are operating when they're so launch dependent. So anyways, I just want to acknowledge that for you because that's I can only imagine the collective relief and excitement when the real KPI came out as opposed to the external masculine KPI, which is what we're talking about which I love.
Veronica Romney 24:54
Okay, but I have more questions for and it's been so good. Thank you so much for just being so radically open. Because especially in this space, especially in the online space, especially because of how things have run in the past, because of how fruitful marketing techniques like, you know, social media ads have been for a lot of us in the past where you put $1, you know, we put a quarter in the slot machine and we get $1 out. So then we look at our people like that, okay, well, I'm paying you X amount. So I hope that you're giving me at least 10x return because I'm paying you X amount a month, and not only am I paying you X amount a month, but I started paying you two weeks ago, where's the 10x return from two weeks ago because I've already had a whole like, cycle of payments into you. So we're seeing a lot of that attitude towards advertising platforms, I feel like being extended towards human beings who are operating the advertising platforms, and there's not a distinction between the humans versus the machines. And we're treating the humans like machines.
Gloria Chou 24:54
Yeah, that's a brilliant way to put it. It's literally. That's literally toxic, cancerous capitalism, where we are literally units of production, no different than machines.
Veronica Romney 26:09
Yeah, but you hear very successful CEOs pound their you know, symbolic chess, male and female, I have seen both male and female, on stages in this industry, talk about how if an employee doesn't produce five to 10x, then they're out. And I mean, they're out fast, which means that they're not. Not only do they have the high expectations, but they're not willing to then, you know, tweak the machine, improve the machine help them like, you know. Anyways, I have lots, I won't go off on that tangent. But for you, and I do, I remember our power hour. I remember some of the things that came up. Because we talked about this, we talked about Frankenstein roles versus swiss army knife. We talked about people who have such beautiful transferable skill that can be used in a variety of fashion, but then also not asking somebody to be a mini version of us, just because we're all over the place doesn't mean we expect other people to be all over the place. But talk to me about your big aha that you had between even the distinction between doers versus thinkers versus just even that categorization that maybe you hadn't considered before.
Gloria Chou 27:13
So again, it's the closed fist open fist, right? When you're operating out of scarcity, you're thinking of how much can I squeeze out of a situation. So naturally, I wanted to hire one person that can do everything. The emails. The ads. The campaigns. The DMs. The selling. And that's a manifestation of scarcity, because you are depriving that person of their ability to operate in their unique zone of genius, because we all have one. And if you don't separate that, and you're gonna do all these things, and you're stripping them of how they can really shine, right. And so I started doing a lot of reading about, you know, how to hire people for their zone of genius, and then working with you, you said something that stuck with me forever. And you're like, we need to make a distinction between the thinkers, the strategy people and the doers. And the quickest way to experience failure with hiring is to force that person to do both. And that's stuck with me. And so since our power hour, I started to think, okay, how can I hire an assistant that is happy to do kind of the execution part of it, and maybe post the reels and copy and paste the graphics and do the Canva templates, but then the overall marketing person who is doing the strategy, but they're not actually editing the videos and putting all the captions. So that has really helped me in terms of my marketing efforts, where people feel more respected. And I have more clarity now as I grow my business, to hire that right person. So right now, I am looking for a marketing leader, funnily enough, because you know, you're talking about the Rainmaker, which is amazing, by the way. So thinking about that, and thinking about how this person can work with my team, of video editor, you know, and graphic designer so that it's not one person doing a Frankenstein role. And I think that will yield and I'm sure it will yield a very good candidate who is absolutely aligned, because that's what I'm looking for is alignment.
Veronica Romney 29:00
Well, and you're setting them up for success from the beginning, because you're there's clarity as to what they're doing. You know, it's and where they're utilizing their gifts as opposed to just being all over the place because it's like, a boat with holes all over the place. Which hole takes priority? I don't know. They're all seem like we're all sinking. versus somebody who's like, No, I'm actually Commander-in-Chief of the ship. And I have the authorization to help others or to authorize other people to plug specific holes that are unique to their skills. Right. So anyways, I'm really excited for you and I appreciate that. You sharing that because I'm, as a provider myself, I just being fully vulnerable here. But it's like, it's hard for me to be both like you said the juxtaposition of both Veronicas and affectionally I call myself fiance when I'm spicy and feisty. And then there's V, who's like everybody's best friend and all my best friends growing up call me V right. And so like, even in the manner in which I provide services where I help CEOs architect their teams. There's both versions of that constantly. There's these moments where like Beyonce kind of has to just lay it out right and be super direct with a CEO who is not nearly as self-aware as you are, right. And then there's these moments where I work with a CEO who is so trauma-filled and have had employees burn them and been taken advantage of, I mean, my parents had money embezzled from them, I've had employees walk out on me. I come. I have a lot of empathy. There's no doubt and there's hurt on both sides always. And so there's that V part of me that's like, you know, come into my bosom, let me just hold you and like, tell you, we'll be okay. And not all team members will do this to you. Like, I promise you, but to hold both space, to hold space, to not just coddle and only affirm, but to say hard things and to invite you to do hard things. And not everyone loves that. I'll be very, like, there's just... Not everyone wants that from a coach or provider or consultant, a service provider. And I respect that. And I honor that. But I've never deviated from my mission because I know in order to get the results that you're desperately wanting, I do, we do have to have the conversation of like, Hey, hi, it's me, I'm the problem. It's me. Anyways, I'm just so... I appreciate that you're sharing that because these are hard things that we've talked about. These are raw things. These are vulnerable things. And you're right, whether it's my marriage, entrepreneurship, or being a mother, those three elements of my life are constantly in armwrestling match of what shows me my inefficiencies, the most. What shows me my lack of the most, because nothing will bring you to your knees, and humility, you know, as does entrepreneurship, parenting, or any kind of relationship. Hello, like, there's as much as I think I know, there's so much more that I don't know. And that reminder is always there in these particular arenas of life. So...
Gloria Chou 31:57
I think what you're doing is so sacred. It's really God's work because it's not about selling. Once you kind of make your money in the online space, like you know, there's more to have it, but to be able to keep it in a way that doesn't stress you out, to be able to really wake up every day and not chasing the numbers. But to chase a bigger why and have your team do that leadership ,that is your life's work. It's literally therapy is what I call it. And if you can really learn more about how to be a leader, more than anything, I don't care as marketing. It's like a leader. It will. It will pay so many dividends throughout all areas of your life.
Veronica Romney 32:33
Do you know how I can tell that I've done good work? Because no matter what kind of CEO that I work with, there's very common things that are said. Like almost every CEO that I've ever ever known or worked with, or been friends with, as at one point or another said, I want to burn my business to the ground. This just comes right out. But for me, I can tell when good work has been done and achieved when I work with somebody that goes, I hate managing people. I hate managing people. That's where we start. I hate it. That's literally verbatim what comes out normally, to fast forward whatever length of time, and self awareness and hard work and internal internal auditing. And now we're at a place where like, I'm grateful to be able to help other people to be their best selves. And so I'm grateful for who I have on my team and who is yet to come. Because I'm in a position to make their lives better. That's a totally different mental construct of how you view people managing one is like you said, transactional masculine, just cogs in a wheel. And then one is like feminine, and receiving. And this person's getting, this person who is side by side with me is becoming their best selves. And I'm the beneficiary of that. And I too, as I become my best self, they get to be the beneficiary of my evolution in my progress. And now we're in this beautiful you know, family situation, or I wouldn't say family but just like this really close-knit community amongst ourselves as a team, where as all of us are self improving all of us stand to benefit from everybody's individual growth and that's like you've made it to like Nirvana to me when it comes to people managing and leadership and just to the best dream team situation possible.
Gloria Chou 34:22
Yeah, I still don't have my dream team I have to be honest, it's always this thing to strive for. But I think the way I view it is much more through an internal lens of how can I be a better leader? Like it's kind of like be to have. I need to be to have that. Like, oh, I have the worst luck. I just can't get this right. And these people are so underpaid. It's not like pointing like this external thing. It's like what can I work on? Because in your life and your vision and everything you do your children, they're reflection of you.
Veronica Romney 34:52
Yeah, and that's the other thing too. I mean, people will come and stay. I was on a... I did a podcast with the Rainmaker, with Beth and Julia from Geek Pack. One of the things that Beth said that was like, God, like, I still remember to this moment. She's like, you know, some people stay with you for a season, and some people stay with you for a reason. And I'm like, do you have the summation of teams? And team architecting and team building? It's that people, you know, are there for you for a season or for a reason and for you to find meaning in both is where you literally are winning the game of life to me.
Gloria Chou 35:29
Oh, that's so good. I don't know how to get better than that. What you just said.
Veronica Romney 35:34
Okay, so I guess what I would like to ask you, because anybody who's listened to this conversation amongst us that, you know, either got charged by some of the things that maybe we we were talking about, or are in now, a greater sense of self-awareness. Like, gosh, I'm like Shitake mushroom here like, Yes, I need to work on some stuff here. And yes, maybe how I was raised? Or how I was spoken to coming up in my career, or how I'm showing up in my leadership and my team effort? Oh, no, like, where do they start? Because you've outlined a lot, you've given a lot of great credit to a lot of your... You've named your copywriter. You've named books. I mean, like, you give credit where credit is due for all the work that has influenced you and the progress that you made. But my question is, because it can be overwhelming is, where do I even start, like trying to go buy mushrooms right now? Like, where do I start? Like, where would you advise?
Gloria Chou 36:29
Well, I think the first step is basically just to know that it's a reflection of you. So I'm not saying that there's not people out there to take advantage of you. But more often than not, that's the rarity. And how can you look inside yourself and say, there's work to be done. Once you know that there is work to be done. There's a mindset part and then the actual, like tactical things. So things like building system and processes. And when someone gets hired, make sure that you are hiring them with, like, great questions. It's not like what can you produce? But like, tell me your mindset about this starts from the moment that you start to to vet and there's people out there you can hire for hiring projects. And then once they are on there, give them a clear path to what is your first week look like? What is your first 30 days look like? And your first 60 days, and you might not need 60 days outline. But for me, what I did after my burnout was I realized I hadn't really no systems. And I don't think you're surprised. But I think people reach that level when they're like they're trying to rebuild the engine. So that's what I did. I used Notion. I started to put a checklist together for every new hire, like, like, look at how we show up on Instagram. Like listen to some of my podcast episode. Here are some of my values like. So having a checklist and onboarding where you're not expecting them to do work for you for like the first two weeks maybe. And just getting to know the brand that has really changed the way that I approach work. Whereas before like, Okay, you're here, bye.
Veronica Romney 37:52
Yeah, dumping and running up and running.
Gloria Chou 37:54
So that is like the tactical thing that you need to do, right? Like the tangible thing like build systems. Just literally whatever you're doing, turn on a Loom video. Explain yourself checking your email, for example.
Veronica Romney 38:07
That's interesting. I have an appreciation for systems and SOPs. But if you were to ask me if it's my greatest passion, I love doing it. The answer is the art. No, I'm much more on the marketing side, the art and science of marketing and branding and messaging. However, what I just heard you say so I think on the surface, what we're seeing is systems and Notion and Loom and this and all that super valid. But what I hear deeper than that, that does require you to know you. To know thyself, is you have to define what success looks like for someone else. And that is very intentional, because how you show up on Instagram or how you would respond in the DMs or how you would do X, Y, Z as the person who's held every position in your business as a gritty startup, I eat what I hunt entrepreneur. You now have to translate that in a way that another person who does not have your skills and background can understand what success looks like for both of us. That is not natural. To do that, we just do. We just move. We go forward. And so to pause, and go what are my values, fine, but more than that, what is in all the little nuances of the business? What do I deem or how would I define success and then translating that to somebody else is everything and it requires knowing thyself.
Gloria Chou 39:32
It's so deep the way that you have you know. I know that when you, when the words come out of your mouth, I really feel like you are in your zone of genius because when you just said that it's like you know you were put on earth to do this type of work like you just get it the way you articulate it. So I'm glad you're in your zone of genius because you're truly are but yeah. I mean it's definitely that as well but also all the other things so I talked about the non mindset things like that systems or tools. Now let's talk about mindset because at any moment, an issue or circumstances is always a result of two things, right? It's a mindset and then the actual like resources. Mainly, it's more about mindset. So the mindset is patience. Knowing that it's not going to get done to the way that you want to have it done. Instagram caption is going to have a few words cut off. Maybe my name gets chopped off, maybe the captions are at a point where it's not show like theirs. But through that process, they learn what you like and what you don't like. Before I would just be like, literally like waiting for them to post. And then like critiquing like this, this and this, then what's the point? Why even hire someone when I'm spending more time to do that, right? Also learning to hold my tongue is hard. I want to comment on every little thing. But when you're constantly drilling on everything, this and this and this, think about how that would make you feel empowered, or disempowered. Another thing I started to do is, I don't really want to message my team, like in the off hours. So you know, there's that button on Slack where you can like schedule send them. Yes, ma'am. Please use that all the time. Don't be like old Gloria, where I was messaging people at like 11:59pm. You know, nothing's really that urgent. And it's just knowing the same respect that you want your clients to have for you, for your, your team members. And to be honest, because everything is a reflection of your inner, outer world, I had no boundaries. So I was the one that was answering people's Customer Service at 11:59. And so I expected the same. So doing this work of understanding your value and elevating your humanity, you're able to pass that on to your team members too. But it all starts with you.
Veronica Romney 41:28
Discipline. And that's not a muscle that is given that is that is earned baby is the discipline of leadership, for sure. And yeah, there's lots of little bells and whistles on on your Gmail or your like, okay, schedule for tomorrow or Monday. And then same thing with Slack all the time. 100% Which is why I love those communication channels for work versus boxer because boxer you don't get that and so yeah, anyways, solid advice. I completely agree with you on everything that you've just shared. I'm still in all of your vulnerability. And thank you for sharing everything that you have on this podcast. It's meant a lot. And I genuinely know in my knowing that somebody listening to this needed to hear what you had to say today. And that was a big deal. So thank you, Gloria. Tell the good people where they can one connect with you and tell you how much they loved this podcast, but to also where they can learn more about how you do PR differently than most because I think that's really important. And if you are a woman of color, if you are somebody who has a story that needs to be told in a different way that's you know, authentic to you. Like they need to talk to you ASAP. So how do they do that?
Gloria Chou 42:31
So you can find me on all the social media mainly on Instagram at Gloria Chou PR. It's spelled C-H-O-U if you want to watch my on demand PR Secrets masterclass, I have people watching it and they just landed like all these big features without even even ever talking to me. So I walked through my framework, my CPR pitching method, what a pitch looks like from start to finish that actually got someone featured in like all the magazines. You can watch on demand now at gloriachoupr.com/masterclass. And I also have my own podcast, Small Business PR. It's the only small business PR podcast where I actually interviewed journalists who maybe curate the beauty section for a lawyer or her movie who make gift guides or do entrepreneur features at Business Insider ask them, What are you looking for? How do you pitch? How can a founder who has never pitched before get featured in their dream outlet? Those are the questions that we tackle so those relevant
Gloria Chou 43:21
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