Episode 136: Change to Style + Beauty Industry Insight w/Journalist Jennifer Chan
Ever wanted to get your products on national TV, People Magazine, Home Shopping Network, and more? To get your products on a platform where hundreds of thousands of people can see it, today we are revealing all the PR secrets straight from a journalist who covers these products! This is a must listen for any product maker who wants MORE sales and MORE eyeballs on their product, regardless of the season. Because no matter what season or time of month, there are ALWAYS customers who are interested in your product--you just need to listen to this episode to learn how to get it featured on national TV or on a top tier magazine!
Here’s What We Cover and More:
Opportunities for indie brands and solopreneurs to pitch and get featured.
Killer strategies to set yourselves apart and get noticed.
Building genuine relationships with journalists and understanding their areas of focus.
Do's and don'ts when pitching to media professionals.
Finding timely hooks for pitching without being salesy.
The right way to follow up and the frequency between follow-ups.
If you're running a small biz or you're all about that diverse founder life, here's the deal: it's all about keeping it real with those media folks and staying on their radar. You've gotta hit them with pitches that feel personal, keep gently nudging them and make the most of your social media game. The media world keeps changing, but there's always a shot for your brand to shine! So keep slinging those pitches, don't give up, and who knows? Your brand might just be the next headline grabber.
Product Businesses! Download my free HOW TO GET INTO A GIFT GUIDE/PRODUCT ROUND UP roadmap for free HERE to get more sales and traffic to your site this season.
If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachoupr.com/masterclass.
Resources Mentioned:
Join the PR Secrets Masterclass
Join the Small Biz PR Pros Facebook Group
DM the word “PITCH” to us on Instagram to get a pitching freebie https://www.instagram.com/gloriachoupr
Connect with Gloria Chou on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/gloriaychou
Join Gloria Chou's PR Community https://www.facebook.com/groups/428633254951941
Follow Jenn Chan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/JennChanGlam/
Check out her website at: http://jennchanglam.com/
Additional Resources:
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Transcript
00:00:00 Gloria: What's up small business heroes, welcome back to another episode of Small Business PR. I am so excited for today's guest. Her name is Jennifer Chan and she is an on-air TV host for national TV shows. She has also written for so many of the most famous outlets that you might have heard of. Welcome to the show, Jennifer.
00:00:15 Jennifer: Thank you, Gloria. Thanks for having me.
00:00:18 Gloria: So we had such a great discussion before that you have so many years of experience. You said over 18 years and I actually want you to list out all of the different publications that you have written for because this is really, really incredible and super impressive.
00:00:29 Jennifer: Thank you. Yes, I mean, time flies. But currently, I write for People Magazine. I also write for Travel and Leisure. Over the years, I've written for InStyle.com many, many times. I used to be the senior fashion editor at E News. I also work for the Kardashians. The list goes on, L.com. And on air, I'm currently on Access Hollywood as their style and beauty expert. I also do KTLA every month. And I am a new on-air host for HSN, the Home Shopping Network.
00:00:58 Gloria: Woo, girl! You really brought it, brought your A game. This is so incredible. Needless to say, not only do you have a lot of style tips, but you also have written for so many outlets. On this show, we really try to make PR and marketing super accessible by asking people on the receiving end of pitches, receiving end of these shows, making the decisions on who gets to be featured. I'm so happy that you're here with us. Can you just define for me what are the aspects and stories that you cover? I know you cover a range of different stories.
00:01:28 Jennifer: Yeah. I would say my niche is really fashion, beauty, celebrity style, how to get that look, what's the latest skincare product, how do they get that glow on the red carpet. It tends to be a little bit more celebrity driven. But I also cover consumer raves. This product sold out five times on Amazon and has 10,000 reviews. Here's why it works. And I'll talk to experts and really verify why this product is selling off the shelves.
00:01:52 Jennifer: A lot of times I cover Asian American owned brands in particular. I'm Asian American. So in the last couple of years, I would say since COVID and there's been this wonderful surge of community pride and building community morale for those brands, I feel like I've championed a lot of those conversations I've done on air segments that are Asian American centric. I've done huge roundups for people magazine where I spotlight, you know, all of the very deserving brands in the community. And it's something that from the get go, like why I wanted to work in media a million years ago when I was little is because I was obsessed with magazines, but I never saw people that looked like me. I never saw celebrities that even resembled anything that could look like me.
00:02:32 Jennifer: And even, you know, when I was starting out in editorial 18, 19 years ago, there was not the diversity that we had even in beauty. Like we had Bobbi Brown and NARS and like Matte cosmetics, and those were the brands to pick from. And now, especially in beauty, it's so personal, but we can really get to know the founder behind it. We can get to know why this was, you know, developed, what was the void in the market that this person solved for. Maybe it was a family, you know, generations old formulation from some country that we haven't heard of yet. Now it's Korean skincare. I went to Korea last year and I got to really dive in deep into the K-beauty scene. I've done several on-air segments about Korean skincare, which I think is wonderful how just sweeping the world it is and no slowing down in that aspect.
00:03:18 Jennifer: So I'm very passionate about amplifying brands that are owned by people that just have a good mission, they're good people, and they have really quality products. I think my role as a journalist and as a media personality was always to amplify that. I just always felt like I'm the megaphone, I'm the voice, I'm going to test everything. And my friends come to me all day every day and they're like, what's the best mascara? What's the best under eye concealer? I'm going on vacation, I need one sunscreen that will help me with my entire family and we won't come back looking like lobsters. What do we get? And so I feel like I'm like the go-to girl for all of those solutions that really do make a big difference in your day-to-day life.
00:03:55 Gloria: Oh, that's so good. You are your worth. They're like music to my ears, because as you were listing out all of those products, I have someone in our PR community who fits that. And we have so many incredible API founders, one of them who just got on Elle and she was listed in article without pay to play and without a PR agency as one of the 10 best facial cleansers and along with like Dermalogica and Tata Harper. So I love what you said about amplify and being a megaphone.
00:04:19 Gloria: But I know that for a lot of people who are listening, my audience, they might feel, well, the beauty industry is so saturated and it's just who you know and you have to pay an influencer. But you said something different. You said that you want to amplify diverse stories. So can you just validate that for me? Are you mainly looking for products who are recommended by a celebrity or an influencer or is there a chance for an everyday small business owner just starting out to get featured?
00:04:42 Jennifer: I would say it's twofold. Editorial has changed so much, especially with affiliate rates and that entire new category of editorial, which is actually a category that I fully work in now. 10 years ago, it was very church and state. The thought of ever getting for a publisher to get a commission off what was published editorially was absolutely never happening. And now, times have changed and affiliate rates are possible. So I will say, yes, there is always going to be that push for focusing on the brands that the consumer and the reader just know and trust, the Dermalogica and the Murad and those.
00:05:25 Jennifer: And I will also say that those brands also tend to have very handsome affiliate rates. So for those of you that don't know, publishers will often work out an affiliate rate commission. And we are, I don't want to say we're swayed in any way to cover like ultimately, it's always an editorial decision. But if we know like, okay, Dermalogica has a great commission rate and it always sells out because everyone loves their exfoliant product. And it's going to be included in the roundup just because we know people are going to resonate it. They're going to feel familiar.
00:05:58 Jennifer: But that's also an opportunity for an editor or journalist to slide in other things that we know are just as good, if not better, into something. So roundups like that, there can always be an opportunity for a smaller, lesser known brand. And then I would also say that lately in the last five years, the coverage where it's first person, I tried it stories, which I also do a lot of, are a great way for indie brands to get a piece of the pie because people trust the writer now or the influencer.
00:06:28 Jennifer: And if we can say, I tried this sunscreen and it was half the price of this designer one and it did just as well or whatever, that's a great opportunity for a smaller brand to get coverage in a really organic, meaningful way. So I would say, the big brands are never going to go away. They are big for a reason and we love them. But I would say more now than ever, I'm seeing a really great opportunity for smaller brands to get recognition in their own way
00:06:55 Gloria: Oh, I love that so much. And also, what is news if it's not featuring diverse stories? You're not just the mouthpiece of these big companies. Can you tell me why now is really the best time for indie brands and solopreneurs or just really bootstrapping founders to pitch and get featured, whereas maybe before the barrier to entry was much higher.
00:07:14 Jennifer: Barrier to entry was much higher before. I think because as an industry, we've all had to pivot. We've all had to realize that what we were doing for so long isn't working today. We've had so many big movements of inclusion and diversity and having models that look like the world. Does this actually work on all skin tones? Do you have 50 foundation shades or do you have 12? Like, and editorially, and I think even with makeup artists who are influencers in their own right, and anybody, we're looking at that.
00:07:47 Jennifer: And those are the brands that we're gonna pick because we know that our audience is really demanding that. So I, like I said, when I started in this industry, there were like a few brands to pick from, and we didn't have that much in skincare was like a few brands. And now it's almost like we have too many. But it's a beautiful thing. I hosted an event last month at 13 Loon, which I'm sure you're familiar with, but it's like a very curated beauty experience and it's all BIPOC owned beauty brands. And they're amazing and fabulous. And I kicked off the event by saying like, look how far we've come.
00:08:23 Jennifer: This would have never happened 10 years ago. I know it because I lived it. And I lived it being the only minority in many editorial teams. And I used to work on a big website and we did a gallery of celebrities that refreshed every morning of what they wore the night before. And every single day, what I had to pick from on Getty Images looked exactly the same. It was essentially a statuesque, you know, size zero blonde celebrity, maybe a brunette every now and then, but that was it. And now we have, you know, so many different body types to appreciate and really just shine a light on. And that applies, you know, I'm obviously gonna speak from a fashion and beauty lens, but for me that means the world. That's why I got into media and that's why I don't see myself ever leaving this industry.
00:09:07 Gloria: And that's why we sought you out to have you on the show. Because I think, like you said, I mean, there's literally people who can't find their shade or people who are making stockings and hosieries not in the right shape. We actually have people who are actually doing that. You have a hosiery in and even band-aids, right? So I think it's such a great time for our community of diverse founders.
00:09:28 Gloria: Now you did touch on something, which is that before it was really hard, but now there's just a lot of competition because there are a lot of mission-driven, BIPOC-owned businesses. So let's say if you are in one of those categories and you have a great mission, but maybe everyone else does too, how can you get your product featured? How can you stand out if you are diverse and you are mission-driven?
00:09:51 Jennifer: I think that my best tip is to really do your homework, like look at the writers of the publications that you're really hoping to get featured in and study up on what that writer is really focused on. What are her beats? What are the topics that she tends to cover? And then familiarize yourself with that. And then when you're pitching, it actually feels personal. I feel like so many brand owners have successfully done that to me personally, where I feel like a strong connection to them.
00:10:20 Jennifer: I may not have met them in person, but based on our interaction, our emails, our DMs, liking my social content, me liking their social content. Sometimes they'll feature me on their grid and it's just like a love fest. And that's just a nice warm fuzzy. I just left today, I was visiting a brand and essentially they've been, I'd say to the market maybe four years now. So essentially still brand new, but they've gone viral several times. I have written about them four or five times. My articles have gone viral. Apple News have picked them up. I've moved so much product for them.
00:10:51 Jennifer: And that founder, she opens her doors up to me to her showroom and it's like, whatever you want is yours because you have literally built my brand. You have moved more product than any other influencer or other opportunity for her. And so I feel like I'm part of the family. I feel like when I wear her product that I literally tell everyone about it. I've gotten 12 of my best girlfriends to all buy her product and we wear it together and we take photos just organically. And I go on vacation and it's swimwear and I wear it in the pool. And then inevitably five women are swimming over to me and ask me what I'm wearing. And I'm, I'm just like her organic, like brand ambassador or publicist, because I love it so much. And because she shows me love and I show her love, it's just this like very natural thing. And it feels good to help a brand that I know is new and it's a crowded market, but I believed in the product and she sought me out and it was a great fit for me.
00:11:46 Jennifer: So I think that's what you really got to know is like, what is the journalist passionate about? If she's an outdoorsy person, then talk to her about that. Hey, I saw that you went hiking over the weekend. You have to try a new backpack. You're going to love it. But if she never covers hiking and that's what you have to offer, probably not your best fit. And then I, and sometimes I have to tell people that like, I don't have kids. I can't cover this baby line. I will never be able to test it. And that's not, on the other hand, just so that the brands know, outlets have writers that were so niche. I'm an expert in fashion and beauty. And if I pitch a story about parenting or food or running shoes, I'm probably not going to get greenlit for that because that's not my expertise.
00:12:28 Jennifer: And they know that they have someone else who is an expert at backpacks or air fryers or whatever. So knowing the journalist and really kind of paying attention. I know it's a lot of work. Like, it probably feels invasive. But if you have the right brand, and it's the right fit, just like the swimwear example I gave you, like it could last for years. I have another relationship with the brand. It's a fragrance brand and it's female founded, minority owned. I've never met her in person. But when she emails me, it's like hearing from an old friend. And we talk about our family and our weekends and our holidays.
00:13:00 Jennifer: And she sends me a beautiful holiday package. And, you know, it feels like I want to do good for you because I adore you as a human being. And I think you have a great product. So it's those connections and all of them are small brands. They're all small businesses. They're not necessarily the big ones that I think of immediately for a headline story. But I know that if I have an opportunity that will fit, if it's Women's History Month and I need to feature 10 women female founded brands, I know that they deserve to be in one of those 10 spots because I've built this relationship with them over the course of some time.
00:13:32 Gloria: Ooh, I love it so much. I love how you said to treat it as relation because I think a lot of times, you purchase so scarce even press the send button. And they press it once and kind of go hide in the corner and it's like, no. Do follow up, it's okay. So let's talk about the actual tactical part of pitching, right? Because that's kind of how it starts because if I don't know you, but I really love your coverage, and let's say I'm and API founder, BIPOC founder, what is the best way to pitch. Obviously, I teach that in my program. But I want to hear from you, what are some no-nos in terms of pitching? And then we can get into the actual follow-up do's and don'ts.
00:14:05 Jennifer: I'd say the no-nos are, you have to obviously know the writer. You have to make sure that it's the right fit, number one. Number two, offer samples if you can, just right out the gate. Don't expect anything, but if you can provide a sample, and be like, can I just send this to you and see if you like it? That is the first way to get my attention. I know this sounds self-serving, but I promise you it's not. It's because if I have that product and I can see it on my shelf every day or it's right next to my keyboard and I haven't tried that hand cream yet and I need a hand cream in that moment and I test it out, I'm going to remember it versus an email sitting in my inbox that I've never touched, seen or felt. So it really does do you a world of good if you can get your product into the right hands.
00:14:52 Jennifer: And also being patient because sometimes stories or placements take quite a while. I might not have a fit right now and I might not have it next month, but I might have it in six months. And I will keep you in mind if you remind me. And it's like dating, right? You have to keep the momentum, but you can't overwhelm the person. And you also have to make sure that it's not too one-sided. I have to also reply to you back and then it's a little bit of a ping pong. I can't even tell you how many pictures I get a day. Because all the categories that I cover, imagine that every single day all time zones, like it's very overwhelming.
00:15:32 Jennifer: I never have a day off, even if I'm like, I'm going on vacation, I'm out of the country, I'm still reading my emails, because there's no way I can ignore my inbox for even one day, I will get backed up by the thousands. And so it's really crazy. And if I don't respond to you, it may not be that I'm not interested, it may not, it just, I read it, I promise you I read it, I probably just haven't a fit right now. But if you've emailed me five times and I haven't replied, it's probably because I'm not interested. It's like dating. So I will say follow-ups are necessary. That goes for everything in life today.
00:16:06 Jennifer: We're just so overwhelmed. And I think that striking that balance of not being too aggressive, but staying top of mind is really important. But also making sure it's the right fit. Again, if you're pitching something that I just can't cover, then even if it's the best product in the world, there's nothing I can do for you. So like having that grace about it too.
00:16:29 Gloria: I love what you said about remind you, because I think so many founders are like, oh, I sent this one message and she didn't get back to me. She must hate me. And you're saying, no, you actually depend on their follow-up. So can you tell me what is the right way to follow up and what is too many follow-ups? What's the frequency between follow-ups?
00:16:46 Jennifer: I think the frequency should be like, after you send the first pitch, follow up with me in like 10 days. Honestly, give me more than a week because I have so many things to look at. And for me, I'm not just a writer. I'm also on TV. That takes an entirely different bandwidth of prep and coordination and sometimes travel. And I have so many things going on. So I generally do need a little bit of time. And I think the most elegant way to obviously do the email, always do the email.
00:17:18 Jennifer: But something that a lot of brands are savvy to do is to follow me on Instagram and to just like a photo. Like you don't have to comment on everything or DM me every day, but just seeing that little like your brand logo or whatever will remind me like, oh yeah, I need to reply to them, I promise. Like it is like a weird psychological thing at this point, but it's like a nice subtle way to be like, hi, like we're looking at you. And I'll be like, oh yeah, I got to email them back.
00:17:44 Jennifer: But if you send me one to pitch and I never hear from you again, I will probably forget. And I will probably, you know, like every second of my day, I'm looking at emails and sometimes I purposely will not open a pitch because I know I need to respond to them. And then I have all these unread things that I need to get to at midnight. And then the next day, it's like I'm flooded by East Coast publicist or brands that are flooding my inbox. So it gets very overwhelming over here. So follow-ups are key. I would say if you haven't heard from me by like three or four follow-ups, then like that's kind of probably your answer.
00:18:15 Jennifer: But that's not to say that I won't search my inbox for you four months from now and be like, hey, I suddenly have a need for linen, you know, whatever, and you happen to be a linen brand, let's talk. So don't be discouraged. But I, my inbox, I mean, I have maximum storage and my inbox goes back for like, I don't know, 15 years of pitches. So I have everything and I can see, you know, the chronology of what people send me.
00:18:43 Gloria: I mean, that is so profound because a lot of times people don't even know that you read it. And the fact that you can go back four months later and actually pick their name out is amazing because it means that you should always pitch often and put your name in the hat. You never know.
00:18:55 Jennifer: And I can't speak to this for every journalist, but I personally open every single email, every single one. I read every single pitch, at least scan it to see. And if it's like totally not a fit, then I still won't delete it because I'm like somebody, other journalist friends might be like, hey, do you have a whiskey brand that I can, and I'll be like, I don't cover alcohol, but like, yeah, I have a few, here's some good ones. And I'll send it to that. That happens all the time. So like, I consider myself, because I've been doing this for so long, I'm hyper organized. I keep everything, you know, pretty much, I can remember things very quickly and I can pull things from, you know, long time ago. And you never know when I need something, so.
00:19:35 Gloria: That's amazing. I love how you said follow up. So let's talk about the DMs because we do teach that where it's like you should follow up. What is the right way to DM and should they DM from a business account or their personal Instagram account?
00:19:47 Jennifer: I think immediately I would say from the brand account if they can, just so it kind of like makes me, lets me know like, okay, they're real. And usually identify yourself, be like, hey, I'm, you know, Karen, I'm the founder of this brand. I'm da da da da da. And then, you know, usually they should say like, what's the best way to contact you? Or what's the best way I can get my product in front of you? And I'll be like, here's my email, or I'll just throw them my shipping address and be like, send it, let me see. And it can be that much more efficient.
00:20:14 Jennifer: But I will say, I know a lot of people like to keep their DMs to their personal lives. They want to keep their emails to their professional lives. So like, obviously not like overwhelming the journalists in the DMs. But it's like a nice... again, elegant way to remind us that you're paying attention and you are really interested in getting to know us more. There are some brands that will email me and then DM me immediately and be like, hey, I just sent you an email. And it's like, okay, I got it. So maybe not doing that, but send the email. If I don't respond right away, wait a day or two and then nudge or DM or even just liking or commenting something on my social will probably turn on that light bulb of like, oh yeah, I owe them an email. So there's all kinds of ways.
00:20:55 Gloria: Yeah, I love that too. I mean, I've told people to DM right away in case they forget, but I always do think that a DM is helpful. There are obviously some journalists who say like no DMs, but it seems like your DMs are wide open. And do you actually check that? Because I know it kind of gets filtered, right? If you don't know it.
00:21:13 Jennifer: It does. It does get filtered. And sometimes I will probably see it. I obviously have to accept it for it to move into my primary inbox. But there is one, for example, that's sitting in my request right now. And they asked if they like, we'll send you a product if you post about it. And I don't work that way. I'm like, that may be for an influencer and I am an influencer in my own right, but I don't lead with that. I think my media, my journalist hat is, is really where I lead with. So I'm like, that doesn't work. If you don't want to send me a product, then I don't want to cover it. It's just that simple. I'm overwhelmed with how much I get. So I'm not looking for more products. I'm looking for the right ones.
00:21:53 Jennifer: And so if you, if you are just stingy about it, then you're actually getting in your own way of potentially getting coverage. I see it like that. So I'm in no way trying to collect more samples. I wish I had a storage unit at this point to keep everything, but I'm looking for the right ones to feature. And the best way for me to be, again, familiar, fall in love with your brand is to just let me see it, try it, test it. And that can fold into so many other opportunities later.
00:22:22 Gloria: So you said so many things that are helpful for us. So offered us in a sample. Don't be shy about following up. Don't be shy about DMing you. Now let's get to the actual pitch because it really starts with cold pitching. So let's talk about like from the subject line to the body of the pitch. And obviously I teach that, you know, it should be concise. The subject line should be about what the pitch is and not mention their name. I also teach a method where, you know, I like to have three bullet points. So, but can you tell me from your point of view, what are some of the pitches that instantly they're like, okay, and some that are just like, ugh, no.
00:22:53 Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, the oh no is easier to answer, I think, right off the bat, because a lot of times I still get every day at least one pitch that doesn't have my name in it or has like dear X or dear first name. And it's like obviously auto generated and they forgot to fill it in. And so it doesn't prohibit me from opening it. I will still open it and read it. But it does kind of make me think like, but I would say things like definitely send a sample. I would say if you can possibly embed a photo of the product that helps just so I can quickly I don't need your whole gallery. I don't need high res images attached. I don't need that. I just need a quick visual hit of like, this is what it looks like.
00:23:29 Jennifer: So like I know if it's like, you know, aesthetically pleasing if it's going to be attractive if in an article or around up or on air. Always hyperlink your brand. I mean, this seems like an obvious to me. But like if you're telling me about a new brand that I've never heard of, and you just tell me the name of it, you don't hyperlink it, then that makes me take one extra step and open my Google window and type it myself and find your website. And is this what they're talking about? Like referencing the pitch and all of that. So it's like, it sounds very simple, but a lot of people miss that part. Tell me the price. I need to know the price. I need to know if it was like, if it's new, did it launch? Has it not launched yet?
00:24:03 Jennifer: I would say, you know, one thing I actually... I took time out of my life one time to talk to founders who had launched something. And this was during COVID, but they did a media event where they launched it over Zoom and we talked about the product with skincare. And we had the product in hand. And I did a couple of stories just to give it a shout. And then they asked me to take it down because they were like, it's embargoed. So can you hold this until this date and then you can repost it? And I said I will delete it right now, but with all due respect, like embargoing to me is like not on the table in 2024.
00:24:40 Jennifer: It's like your eye cream or whatever is not that crucial. There are 300 other eye creams that I could have posted on my stories and I did you a solid. And if you don't want me to post it, I won't, but I'm not gonna do it on your precious launch date. Like if you're not ready to launch it, then don't give it to me. So that's really how I feel today. We don't have the time. I get 300 boxes in my doorstep every day. My UPS and FedEx guys know me like they're family now. And so it's like, if you have a precious embargo date that is important to you, then simply time it out to give it to media when you're ready for it.
00:25:12 Jennifer: Don't have us be accountable for your timeline. And I had to explain that to them, or it's like, this isn't like, you know, we're releasing the Super Bowl halftime performance and this is like super confidential. Like this is an eye cream. If you're not ready for it, then I'm not gonna talk about it, but I probably will talk about it later either. So it's kind of like in a very nice way, like being respectful of my time too, because I sat on a 30-minute Zoom, I got revved up about your product, I did a couple of social posts to let the world know.
00:25:41 Jennifer: And then you were like, Oh, that was like, just for us. And I was like, oh, you kind of get one impression to make me, I guess, fall in love. And it's kind of hard to come back from that. So I would say like the strategy of it all, even the sending the samples part. If I'm not supposed to buy it, just don't give it to me. Just wait until you're ready and then I'll take a look at it too. But I can't be held accountable for things like that because we're so overwhelmed. And now categories like skincare are 300 fold than what they used to be six years ago. There are just so many more brands to look at. And yeah, I want to give everyone love. So I hope that's helpful and doesn't come across mean.
00:26:26 Gloria: So for those people who don't know what our embargo is, it's usually like when you put on the top of a press release, like it's not to go live. But what if you are launching something, shouldn't they pitch you before it goes live onto the newswire or they make an announcement? And in that case, what should be the right timing of that?
00:26:41 Jennifer: I mean, I guess it depends on if they're trying to target print or digital, I'm strictly digital. So for me, everything is in real time and the only time I mean, I have definitely covered launches and I'll be like, I'm actually working on right now and it launches in early March, but we're almost at early March. So it has to be a very short window for me to even think about for me to even get greenlit from a publication to cover it. It needs to be pretty tightly. If I tell them, oh, this thing is launching in June and it's February. Nobody cares. Like we just don't have, we're not thinking about June.
00:27:12 Jennifer: We're thinking about what are we pubbing today, tomorrow, maybe over the weekend. That's as far as our brain can go because every day is so fast moving. So things like that. But I would say like, even with the launch, I'm speaking of like that brand and I have a relationship. I've covered their launches specifically, so many times that it's like they come to me first, when they have something new and I kind of we kind of know how each other works.
00:27:36 Jennifer: But if you're a new brand, if you are brand new, and nobody has essentially heard of you and you're only D2C, and it's just basically you've decided I want February 14th to be my launch day because I love Valentine's Day and that's important to you, then only go out to media like literally right before Valentine's Day. Don't do it December 10th. Like that's way too far. That's way too much of a long lead time. I will likely forget about you in February.
00:28:02 Jennifer: I would do it as soon as you possibly can because the reality is if you're a new brand, you're up, you're already up against a lot of other big news, big launches, things that kind of already capture our attention. So your window for grabbing us and getting the coverage when you want it is pretty, pretty short, pretty small. So you've got to time it correctly and it might be very important to you, but again, it's not as important to us necessarily, especially if you're a small brand, that's very specific. But yeah, for bigger brands, I feel like we can, I hate to say that we respect their timelines a little bit more just because we like, oh, we know this brand, Dermalogica.
00:28:42 Jennifer: We know this is going to move six figures of products within the time this article goes out. So, okay, you want to launch this date? We'll put it on that date. But even with that, we can't guarantee it. We don't work for the brand. If an outlet's like, I need a story up at 8 a.m. and it's one day before your launch date and that's the opportunity to hit pub, it's going to hit pub. Or if it's like that, it's a busy news day and breaking news happens and Kate Middleton, something happens like that, and that's what our feed is. And your launch date, even if we told you, is gonna be February 14th, and that's what you're hoping on, it might get pushed to the weekend because other things happen. And ultimately, there's no one, you can't point fingers because that's how media works. So I think just being graceful about it all.
00:29:27 Gloria: And the good thing about that is that it's always changing, and that's also the good thing because it means that there's always a seasonal relevance or a way for your product to get featured multiple times a year. Let's talk about timing because especially with product makers, we talk a lot about gift guides and gift guides are seasonal. So what is the right timing to pitch for, let's say a Mother's Day or a Q4 holiday Christmas gift guide? When should they pitch for digital?
00:29:50 Jennifer: I think for digital, it should still be pretty close. I mean, I always say I need about three weeks lead time for big tent pole events like holiday, Mother's Day, things like that. I can't possibly work much more in advance than that. And that's already, in my opinion, really a lot of lead time. I've turned stories around. My last role, we did two to three stories a day every day, and they were all shopping-centric, product-driven. And sometimes you come up with that pitch that morning and it's pub by noon. So we have to work really fast and we're trained that way.
00:30:25 Jennifer: So essentially, three weeks is like a lifetime in digital. But because we don't give guides take a long time, you want to make sure it's curated, all of that. You do need a little bit more lead time, but I also wanna say, be mindful. If it's the Monday after the Grammys, if it's the Monday after Oscars or something like that, and you have an evergreen pitch about your baby blanket, hold it. Like nobody is going to look at that that day. Actually, it's going to be a surefire way to get your pitch deleted because especially depending on who you're pitching, we are focused on the red carpet.
00:30:59 Jennifer: We are focused on like the best dress, the worst dress, the how did she get that updo for the Oscar winner, whatever that story is, for that day. So be really mindful.
00:31:09 Jennifer: Even if maybe your product isn't about red carpet, if everyone else is talking about the red carpet that day, or everyone else is talking about, I don't know, Meghan Markle walking out and looking amazing, then be aware of what else is happening in the world because you're just not probably going to get the attention that you deserve. So yeah, I would say pay attention to all of those things because on my point of view, I've covered red carpets for so many years and those Sunday, Monday, that timeframe is so critical and we are burning the midnight oil, we are waking up early.
00:31:42 Jennifer: If it's Black Friday, forget about it. If your pitch is not about Black Friday, Cyber Monday, Amazon Prime Day, then be gone. The nicest way possible. We are so focused on generating that content for those tentful days that only happen and stand to make a great deal of money for the publisher that you just won't be doing yourself. You'll be getting in your own way of getting any coverage because it's just a nuisance at that point.
00:32:11 Gloria: And, you know, as founders, we always put these limiting beliefs. I can't tell you how many times in my PR program, people are like, oh, I'm too late for gift guides. And it's like, no, you're not too late. So, I mean, can you just affirm for me, what is the absolute deadline to get into any kind of gift guide?
00:32:26 Jennifer: It just depends because I think almost all outlets now do last-minute gifts that can still ship by Christmas or whatever. And that might come on December 21st. So there's always, especially for digital, there's always an opportunity. If your product is on Amazon, you have such a great opportunity to get into those last-minute guides because inevitably, they can get in those stories that are like, again, 20 products that will still ship by New Year's Eve or Christmas Eve, things like that.
00:32:55 Jennifer: So I would say to that end, like, it's never too late until it's too late. If I tell you it's closed, then that really doesn't mean. And if it's already been published, please don't come back to me and say, can you update this with my product? Or are you going to refresh, you know, last year? No, I'm not. But there's another way to get my attention. I have people have seen my Asian American roundup, for example, and it includes so many products. And they were like, we saw it, we love it. Thank you for doing this for the community.
00:33:24 Jennifer: We'd love to send you this in consideration and it might be February and we all know AAPI month is in May, but now I have it like well in advance. So maybe you missed it last year, but you have a whole other cycle that you can get it in front of me before May turns around and I can figure out a way to include it in this year's coverage and it's fresh. So don't feel discouraged and you know, if you didn't get into the holiday gift guide, Valentine's Day is around the corner. Maybe you're doing a President's Day sale that is amazing and people shouldn't buy it over the weekend. There's an opportunity always which is great and so don't be discouraged.
00:33:59 Jennifer: To me, coverage is coverage and some of my most successful shopping-centric articles have happened, not around the holiday. I did a swimwear story and it was like the dead of winter actually. And I wrote about swimwear because everybody just was, it was like right after the holidays, it was kind of like a slow season and I went to Hawaii and I wore this bathing suit that I loved how it performed and how it made me feel and I wrote about it and I took photos in it and it went everywhere.
00:34:23 Jennifer: Apple News picked it up and I had friends in South Africa and Europe being like, I'm opening Apple News and you're on the cover. And that's the brand that I spoke of that I've sold so many swimsuits for them in an unlikely time of the year, just because it worked. There was a captive audience in the dead of winter that was envisioning, I want to go on a tropical vacation. I want a new bathing suit. So I would say traditionally, yes, there are gift guides and there are seasons, but there's always numerous ways organically that coverage can happen all year round.
00:34:57 Gloria: Oh, 100%. We actually have a calendar of all the different dates. And it's just to remind people that there's always an opportunity. You just have to step back and really think creatively and realize that there's a whole ocean open for you. So I love what you said.
00:35:08 Jennifer: There is. And pay attention to current events. If you remember that Oscars where Jada Pinkett Smith and her alopecia was all the buzz that day. Nobody knew that was going to happen that night. But first thing Monday morning, I was on a segment about hair loss solutions. And I talked all about what alopecia is and if you are suffering from this, or if you just have hair loss, here are seven products that can help you at home. And that was like a very timely thing that nobody could have prepped for or pitched me for.
00:35:37 Jennifer: I just already knew great products that helped with hair loss because people had evergreen like all year long been pitching me and I've been trying that in particular. So when that moment hit, I'm the expert to talk to. So yeah, like, of course, be that just a calendar, but like little moments like that are magic for certain brands if it's the right fit.
00:35:56 Gloria: Yeah. And that's why I always talk about relevance, because one of the best ways to pitch and correct me if I'm wrong is just to look at some TikTok trends or what's happening online. What are some other ways that a founder can find that relevance and tie it to their story without being salesy?
00:36:11 Jennifer: Definitely social media. I mean, I think like just paying attention to anything, like maybe it's, I'm trying to think of a good example. I don't know, I have pitches that I always read, it's one publicist that I can think of or one brand that I can think of and she makes it so personal. She'll start her pitch and be like, over the weekend I was at a winery and I chipped my nail and da da da. And you're kind of like, oh, it kind of feels, I mean, it's so unique and I know her personally, so maybe that's why I'm like, let's see what she has to say today.
00:36:42 Jennifer: But it's things like that where I'm just like, I feel enchanted almost by you sharing a little bit about me and how this product works for you. Or there was one time, actually, I wore tights to work, and they snagged and I posted a story about it. And I kid you not, my lunchtime, two hosiery brands reached out to me and they're like, "What's your address? We're sending you some right now. You'll have it by tomorrow." And it's like things like that where I'm so incredibly touched by just the sentiment and by paying attention and feeling like I have a friend looking out, like things like that.
00:37:16 Jennifer: One time I was on a flight and I forgot my favorite lash brand and I was going to be on TV and I was like, oh my gosh. And I just did a story about me and I tagged like my favorite brands and they, by the time I got to the hotel, I had lashes sitting in my hotel room. So I would say just like being endearing yourself to like the targeted writers or journalists that you really want coverage from and finding a way to like be a part of their life like help them and they will probably help you.
00:37:54 Jennifer: Yeah. I still think that it's like being, having a personal connection to media and making it kind of like, it's all about relationships, right? You have to have a relationship. If I just get blanket emails and there's no human touch to it, then I don't feel as inclined to respond or try it. I just got a package from a founder and I got the samples, but then she followed up with a personal note card in my snail mailbox, because she had my address now so she wrote me a letter, just to say, hey, it's me, da da da, I hope you enjoy.
00:38:21 Jennifer: And it was just an extra step to the care package that I thought was really sweet and I'm forever going to remember that. So I think it's just those little things. Yeah, paying attention and obviously social media, but just what are people talking about? Did something happen at the Super Bowl? Did something happen with the Kardashians? Did you know, like all of those little things? What is the hook? What's timely? What kind of story be, if everyone's talking about mineral sunscreen and you have something else that's maybe better that I haven't heard of, let me know. Let me know why you think yours is better than what everyone is talking about. And let me try it myself. So yeah.
00:39:00 Gloria: You do have someone making sunscreens as well. So everything you're saying, we have someone in our product group. That's, I mean, we talked about so many things. I think one thing that people always ask when we talk about pitching and what you said about move product is, is it affiliate? Like what is, what do you mean? Like can people just pitch and do they have to have an affiliate link? And if they do, what does that look like?
00:39:20 Jennifer: Yeah, I would say yes. They pretty much all need to have an affiliate link today or be on Amazon. And what that means is that publisher, so every major outlet is owned by a publishing company. There's actually not as many as there used to be because we've all kind of merged together. But they have to be in network. So for example, I write for people.com, we're owned by Dotdash Meredith. Dotdash Meredith also owns Birdie and Travel and Leisure and InStyle and so many other amazing publications.
00:39:55 Jennifer: So if you're in network with Dotdash Meredith as the parent company, the umbrella, then essentially every one of those outlets can now see you and realize and know that if we cover you, we link out to you, we can get a kickback for that mention if a sale happens. And you can increase your affiliate rate. And that could be advantageous to the brand. So if you're like, I'm launching this sunscreen in June for the month of June, I want to bump up my rate to 40% commission, which I know sounds like a lot, but that could be all the difference of you getting covered or not.
00:40:30 Jennifer: Then that will be flagged to us and we'll be like, oh, okay, 40% is like a really sizable amount and let's give it a try. Let's see if people want to buy this sunscreen. And it's probably going, again, like a sun brand, they're like, oh, there's no way I could give you more than 15%. Okay, well, 15% is really modest. And that's kind of like the barrier to entry. And that's everyone, you know, you can't even talk to us if you're not at 15%. So you're likely not going to get covered. So if you can bump it up to a little bit higher, you're probably going to generate sales and therefore break even if not more so. So I always say that to brands as an aside. I know it's a lot.
00:41:09 Jennifer: And again, the writer makes nothing. It's all about the publisher. But I know it sounds like a lot if you're the brand founder and you're like, I can't give 40% of the sale. But again, if you get that one feature that drives traffic to you, the month that it really means something and you get all those sales, then 40% is suddenly going to be well worth it, I think.
So it just depends on what the brand can do, but it's a whole new world of affiliate. And now it's, I would say every single outlet, I mean, everyone from Vogue to Forbes to, I mean, everyone is doing it. So you really can't be a product today and not be on an affiliate network and expect coverage. Like you just can't, it won't happen.
00:41:47 Gloria: We actually just had someone get featured in Elle though. And I'm not sure that she did have an affiliate. I think she just kept messaging, you know, kept messaging and then kept that relationship warm for months and boom, like she was listed as one of the top 10, you know, skincare oils. So, I mean, is this still possible to like not have an affiliate or?
00:42:05 Jennifer: I think depending on, I guess I'm speaking from somebody who's on the e-commerce team. So every, you know, for me in particular, people, my team, we are dedicated to affiliate articles. So everything we do is affiliate. I think if you go to traditional, like there's a traditional beauty team, a traditional beauty editor and they are also working alongside the same parameters of, if possible, it should be affiliatized. There might be a small window where, because they're traditional or old school, then they can maybe get away with sliding in some that are not. But depending on which writer or which team they're on, for me in particular, they all have to be on a network for me to consider coverage.
00:42:50 Gloria: So still using the method of pitching relevance, maybe talking about the product. And so is it just one sentence like here is my affiliate link, we're also on Amazon and do they need to say what the affiliate payout is in that pitch?
00:43:01 Jennifer: No, not usually because we as journalists, we can see it on our back end of what the rate is. And if we don't see you in it, we'll be like, Oh, but are you in network with Dotdash Meredith? And like, if you're not, I'll connect you with someone from our team who can set you up and then they'll work with our affiliate team and then they'll green light it and be like, okay, this brand is now in network. So free to cover it and you know that then we know we can freely cover it. So there's a little bit of a backend process. It's very fast. But that's kind of how it works.
00:43:31 Gloria: What are their own Amazon? That's fine too, right? They don't need to be--
00:43:33 Jennifer: That's totally fine. Yeah.
00:43:35 Gloria: Okay. What about they're just on their own website? That's not enough?
00:43:37 Jennifer: Not enough. Their own website needs to be on an affiliate network then.
00:43:43 Gloria: Yeah. Okay. And one last thing is about websites. I think a lot of people think they need to have a fancy website or a lot of followers on Instagram. Is that true for you to feature them? Or it's fine to have a more minimal approach.
00:43:53 Jennifer: As long as their website works. I mean, as long as it's like not catching, as long as it's a shopping cart experience that really gets you to the end and it's fresh and all of that. Yeah, I think as long as it works, it doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles. Social media helps because sometimes it's much faster for me to look at your Instagram and be like, oh, this long lasting lipstick performs like this. And if you have like a 30 second reel and I can see it in action, it's a lot easier for me to describe it or talk about it than for me to like read the product description on the website and be like, okay, well, this is what the copywriter said, but like, how do I put that into my own words?
00:44:30 Jennifer: So I would say like your social is, you should lead with social in a sense in today, like you should focus a lot of your content on it. And it should not just be repurposed like campaign imagery that you shot for your website and just plop it on the grid. That's not what I'm talking about. I would like it to have a personal touch. I would like it to have video. I would like to see sometimes people behind the brain if that's relevant. What else? If you have a great story, find a way to tell it through social. If you have foundation that matches 50 shades, I wanna see that on different models in a really fast-paced video capture that you did at your photo shoot.
00:45:13 Jennifer: I want to see things in action. And if you have user generated content, like repurpose it, repost it. A lot of stories can also come from TikTok, like this TikTok viral lip stain received, you know, da da da, like that's a story that might be a break we've never heard of. But if it's TikTok famous, suddenly it's newsworthy. And that wasn't the case five years ago, you could literally just have all of your accolades and affirmation from social media users and that could turn into a media story. And if we have reviews or comments, like suddenly that's the expert that we interview for that. So media has changed so much, which is great for small independent brands.
00:45:56 Gloria: One last thing about that, because I think a lot of people now with all these influencers and pseudo journalists, people who are small businesses, they just can't afford to be sending tons of samples for people who are not actual journalists. Can you help our readers navigate or our listeners navigate who are like the actual people like you who can't amplify and who are these influencers who are just looking for free product?
00:46:18 Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really hard because I think a lot of brands don't know the difference. And I think the easiest way to verify if someone is a journalist is to go to Muck Rack and just look them up and it will aggregate all of their articles. It'll just show you like, here's what they last wrote about. Here's what it was. If they haven't written in 10 years, then probably not a targeted writer for you right now. So I think that's the best way to verify it.
00:46:45 Jennifer: And then, you know, it's not I don't want to poo poo influencers, I think a lot of them can move the needle. But I know a lot of brands can afford to do both. So if you are, you got to kind of just decide like, what's your target and see what's working for other for you. There are likely a lot less editors than there are influencers. So it's a much smaller community. And I kind of think like, selfishly as a journalist, like we've kind of earned our stripes in the industry.
00:47:12 Jennifer: And we probably have pedigrees or experiences or things like that make us experts in the field. And we can write about it. And it can be amplified. It can be picked up by Apple News, like things like that, that, that really, and a lot of my friends are influencers, again, like I don't want to put them, but it's just different. And living in LA, a lot of brands will cater to both or they'll put us all in the same room and we're all kind of sizing each other up. And it's like a very weird dynamic right now.
00:47:38 Jennifer: But I'm very proud to be in media and I know that the power that we have and, I just think it's critical back to my first point to align yourself with the journalists or the media people that you think are great fit for your brand. And not just like shoot for the moon, but like really target the stars. You only need a few, I would say, to move the needle for your brand.
00:48:01 Gloria: Yeah. I mean, that's so helpful as it gets kind of gets more, more muddied. But look on Muck Rack, make sure that they have, you know, all the collections of what they've written and see if it aligns with you before you send out a sample, especially if it's expensive. But here's the thing about samples. They don't have to send you a full size, right? They can just send you a little bit without it being like a huge cost to them. That's all doable.
00:48:20 Jennifer: Yeah, it's definitely doable. I mean, I will say like in the SansAge, I rarely get a sample, like a baby size, unless it's like a lab sample and they're like, we're still working on our packaging or whatever. Those are the only times where I'm like, okay, but if it's not finished, it's just harder for me to remember. If I get a little vile and it's done in one or two applications and I throw it out and I forget what it is or I can't remember the brand or something, that's why I need to remember the packaging or the brand name.
00:48:50 Jennifer: It's just like to see it every day. It's like photo memory. So yeah, I understand. But you know, to that token, I travel more than most people and I'm constantly bringing travel sizes. That's all I pack. I'm a carry on queen. So I love a sample. Sometimes if I love a product, I'll be like, can I actually get the travel size if I love it first? So I'm not one. I mean, I love a travel size product all day.
00:49:13 Gloria: We love the minis. Actually just throw a pitch today for someone who has a 10 in 1 moisture stick that's like perfect for a TSM. That's great. I mean, who wants to pay those luggage prices?
00:49:22 Jennifer: Yeah. Not me. I'm not doing it.
00:49:26 Gloria: This was so fun. I feel like I talked to you for hours and hours and hours. Where can people find you, follow your stories, and connect with you?
00:49:33 Jennifer: Oh, thank you for having me. I would say I'm super active on Instagram. Jen, J-E-N-N Chan Glam is my handle. I'm pretty much always on there. I think that's where you found me, Gloria. So Instagram is great. And then my Muck Rack, I think, has all of my other pertinent information if you want to pitch me. But yeah, definitely engage and that's the easiest way.
00:49:57 Gloria: Thank you so much. And thank you for doing what you do to amplify, you know, founders from all different walks of life so that the rest of us can be seen. I think this work is truly a sacred one. And I'm just, I'm so grateful that you're here and that you're also amplifying this mission.
00:50:13 Jennifer: Thank you. You too. You're doing great work.
00:50:17 Gloria: Hey, Small Business Hero, did you know that you can get featured for free on outlets like Forbes, the New York Times, Marie Claire, PopSugar, and so many more, even if you're not yet launched or if you don't have any connections? That's right. That's why I invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought after industry expert.
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